Getting started

[sckeg]

Hello every one,
As I have said in my profile I have been more into the modern firearms, IDPA and three gun style matches; however I have always thought, there is nothing sexier then the flash of a good old flintlock. I would really like to learn more about it and actually try my aim at shooting. A rust trifle (ops, sorry I meant trusty rifle) is nice, but I would like to start with a pistol. I would like to find something old with a little bit of history, but I have seen a lot of wall hangers being past off as old. I have also looked at some new kit models from places like Cabela’s that just don’t seem to have old world flavor I’m looking for.
So my question is: what would you suggest? For a first timer, should I go new or old? Best places to look and so I don’t blow my finger off, what should I know or read first. I really like this sight and I have been reading through the forums, so much knowledge and good info. If you’re in southern VA could you suggest a club or org that I could check into?
Well, I’ve asked a lot and I’m just happy to get any advice you can give.
Good aim
Jim
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting that vote." ”“ Benjamin Franklin

 

[TFoley]

Hello every one,
As I have said in my profile I have been more into the modern firearms, IDPA and three gun style matches; however I have always thought, there is nothing sexier then the flash of a good old flintlock. I would really like to learn more about it and actually try my aim at shooting. A rust trifle (ops, sorry I meant trusty rifle) is nice, but I would like to start with a pistol. I would like to find something old with a little bit of history, but I have seen a lot of wall hangers being past off as old. I have also looked at some new kit models from places like Cabela’s that just don’t seem to have old world flavor I’m looking for.
So my question is: what would you suggest? For a first timer, should I go new or old? Best places to look and so I don’t blow my finger off, what should I know or read first. I really like this sight and I have been reading through the forums, so much knowledge and good info. If you’re in southern VA could you suggest a club or org that I could check into?
Well, I’ve asked a lot and I’m just happy to get any advice you can give.
Good aim
Jim
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting that vote." ”“ Benjamin Franklin

Jim - welcome to the forum! You say you are interested in an old gun - well, what passes for old over here in Yoorup may not be the same as in the USA - many of us over here actually DO shoot 200-year-old handguns, for fun and competition [see the MLAGB site for details]. Be aware that these things are not found at the economy end of the scale, and although we have proof laws over here in UK that ensure that the gun is safe to use, you do NOT have these laws in the US, and any genuinely old gun that you buy will not be proofed, nor might it be safe to shoot.

I suppect that you are really looking for a older-style flintlock handgun, and there you have lucked in, as there a plenty of replicas of the older style arms sold in the US, mostly made in Italy, it has to be said.

Have a look at the online Davide Pedersoli catalogue - there will no doubt be something there to attract you - duellers, military or target style.

Also consider the home-grown products, I'm sure that the others coming along as soon as they have woken up, will put you in the picture there.

Remember the MOST important thing is to use BLACK POWDER and not a substitute if you are intent on getting a flintlock. This mode of ignition and subs do NOT go together.

Best

tac
Supporter of the Cape Meares Lighthouse Restoration Fund

 

[rafterob]

Search NMLRA and you will find a list on their site of local clubs. I would suggest a new pistol in the style that suits you. Track of the Wolf might be a good site to give you some ideas.

 

[LeMat1856]

.
. june 5 / 04:20

hello and welcome to the world of muzzleloading !

first, i'm not quite sure what you mean by "...find something old with a little bit of history..." original, generation 1 pistols can cost up to 6 figures in 100% mint condition; others may cost less but are also worth less (not entirely worthless, though).. these can be found at some auction sites like rock island auction.com

second, if your budget isn't quite up to gen 1 products, then new is the way to go.. here you have dozens to choose from.. check davide-pedersoli.com as suggested and dixiegunworks.com (one of the original "generation 2" [aka 'replicas'] retailers.. they have just about anything you could need through their catalog and online.

third, what to read ? my three favorites are: "percussion pistols and revolvers: history, performance, and practical use" (cumpston and bates), "lyman's blackpowder handbook" (lyman publications), and "the complete blackpowder handbook" (sam fadala).

these are all very compact, full of illustrations, and can be had used for $5-$10 from amazon, alibris, etc..

just for fun, i'll also recommend a "hobby blackpowder gunsmith" type publication because it helps to understand what's going on both inside and outside your firearm.. both of mine were very inexpensive and used.

i've been in 'powder' for just a couple of years and find that the more i learn, the less i know so don't hesitate to post again and again as you progress.. making the right decision for your first purchase will be very crucial to how few headaches you encounter and how many hours of fun you should have.

lastly, i prefer revolvers and rifles of the 1800's so i'll recommend my favorite - the 1856 LeMat.. check it out.

good luck, :hatsoff:

~d~

ps. sorry this is so long,:yakyak: but this is all important... be prepared to set aside some of your budget for 'accessories.' no, these are not to make you look cool... they are devices, supplies, and equipment needed for loading and maintenance.. that's a whole 'nuther book...

 

[sckeg]

By all means post a novel, I will read it. Thank you all so far for your advice, I’m that type that likes to research and ask before I jump in. Yes I’ m familiar with the LeMat, I’ll agree very nice, even though I haven’t shot black power.
To be a little more specific about what I am looking for: It’s that “flash in the pan” that is holding my interest and the cross between my nautical (pirate) side and fire arms side. Also being able to (usually) hit what I’m aiming at I would like the challenge of trying to master the difficulties and intricacies of this type of fire arm.
I came across this on line and it’s the flavor I’m looking for http://www.militaryheritage.com/pistol1.htm
You’re very right 1st gen is pretty much out of my budget. Has anyone dealt with this company? As a novice would drilling the vent be something I would have difficultly doing myself?
Thank you again and I will defiantly be checking out your reading list.
Jim

 

[Zonie]

LeMat: You surprise me.
After all of the crappie LeMats you've bought and fought I would think you would have suggested that the one Cap & Ball gun to be avoided would be any of the LeMat's made by Pietta.

 

[LeMat1856]

.
. june 6 / 10:35


:rotf: i guess misery loves company...!


~d~

 

[LeMat1856]

.
. june 6 / 10:35


bmc,

unfortunatly, i've never come accross that particular manufacturer, but those items do look well made.. likewise, i've never had to nor attempted to drill a vent hole and then proof test.. based on the way they phrase it, many of their customers have done it with much success.. this was just one of several positive comments:

“ I also wanted to let you know that I finally got a chance to shoot the British Military Doglock Musket, after I drilled a touchhole. Ignition was quick and positive with each shot, when using Fffg Goex Powder as a priming charge. This musket has the best sparking frizzen of any I have ever owned. At 50 and 25 yards, I was able to keep all shots within the 8, 9 & 10 rings of the target, using 70 grains of Ffg Goex and a .685 roundball with a .005 wonder patch. The musket is a great shooter!”

the good news is that we have a gunsmith forum here that can guide you through any and every problem you might encounter.

while searching around i found these:
dixie gun works has french AN IX and XIII military flintlocks ($650), and a nice 1805 harper's ferry .58 caliber ($525) - all 3 made by pedersoli, which is an italian builder with a reputation for high quality.. you might be better off going to their site directly and enjoy the 'eye candy' they have on display.. the pictures on dixie don't do them justice.

also, on track of the wolf.com i saw 3 nice pieces: 1780 British Sea Service Pistol(Master & Commander - Far Side of the World movie), British Dragoon Pistol 1720, and a Georgian Pistol..

it seems to me that the site you've found is cleverly exploiting a little known loop hole in firearms distribution that enables them to offer authentic period weapons with "some assembly required" and thus much lower prices.. my 'economic nose' is itching though and that makes me wonder if there's more to this than meets the eye.

i've run accross another site that has very unique period weapons like this and, almost to a man, customers say things like "...had to do extensive trigger work..." or "...part broke day one and had to be replaced...." or "...weak mainspring...." things like this are not entirely unique to that retailer, however.

that said, like yourself, i'd keep trying to find a 'hands on' second opinion before throwing money at them simply because they seem to have such extremely low prices.. quite possibly, once you drill that hole, you own it.

this could be a gold mine or... the shaft.

:hatsoff:
~d~

 

[sckeg]

Thank you, great advice and I am still in the reading and looking faze. I do have another question:
There is something that I was just wondering about. I have been reading about the loading and firing process of flint locks. I know in battle when firing a cannon, after the first salvo the barrel is swabbed with water to extinguish any remaining embers before reloading, but I haven’t read anything about this being done with a musket or pistol. I am thinking that in the field when hunting the time between loading is long enough to make this moot. I would think thought in battle when loading shooting and loading were very rapid the chance of pre-igniting your charge could be greater and could be a problem. Or am I missing something in this equation? Sorry if this is a stupid question but I just have it stuck in my mind and can not work it out.
Thanks Jim

 

[Zonie]

I don't think your missing anything.

The powder loads used in cannons are contained in cloth or heavy paper bags.
The smoldering remnants of these can ignite any new powder charge that is rammed down the cannons bore. This is the primary reason for wet swabbing the bore before loading the next round.

Unless a shooter is using paper cartridges in his/her muzzleloader or rushes the next load IMO there is little to fear from the new powder charge igniting.

That said, there is still a remote possibility of it happening. That is the reason a knowledgeable muzzleloading black powder shooter never loads directly from the horn or from a powder flask.

In my 38 years of muzzleloading I've never seen a new powder charge ignite from any smoldering embers in the barrel but the possibility of it happening keeps me using a separate container to transfer the new powder load to the barrel.

 

[Poor Private]

Zonie,
I have seen powder ignit from the next charge many times. Thankfully not me. Whem I have seen it done is when we do civil war reenacting. We pour 60 grains or more of powder down the tube of a Enfield or Springfield rifle almost immediately after firing. Back in the day it was considered fast if you could do 3 rounds a minute. Some battle situations I have seen guys fire a round in 10 seconds or less. In the middle of the summer with temps reaching in the 90's and firing that fast Barrels get so hot you can't hold them with your bare fingers. I have seen twine, hankies, cloth, sleeves pulled down to cover hands when firing. At dusk firing I have seen rifle barrels glow red.
When those buggers go with a Roman candle whoose next to you it's a pucker moment.
We attribute it to a couple of things. Firing too fast cause the barrel to heat up to combustion temp, and since it is just loose powder embers clinging to the lands and grooves. some of those barrels are so cruded up at the end of a battle you can't get the wrong end of a ramrod down the barrels. At civil war reenactments(mainstream) it's a strick no-no to pull a ram unless your off the field, so no cleaning gets done until your back to camp. And then you see unfired powder come out when you brush it down.

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

This all makes sense to me. The unburned powder at the end of the day is probably due to a lack of compression (no minnie) in the bore.

But at least nobody got shot with a ramrod Robert Redford style! :haha:

Dave

 

[Zonie]

Given the circumstances you describe I have no doubt that you are correct.

"Shooting" a rifled musket with no projectile would leave a lot of fouling that could still have some glowing embers but I was speaking of what I would call "normal" hunting/target shooting situations where quality is of greater importance than quantity.

 

[Poor Private]

I was giving a extreme example for a BP ignition from using the musket. Since this is the only time I have ever seen a BP preflash.
In my modest opinion, I don't believe that one will occur from a revolver, the fired chamber of a revolver would have time to cool off in the subsequent firing of the other chambers so the walls wouldn't be hot, also hot embers would be few and far between since firing the other chambers would most likely setoff/burn any embers or unburnt powder of the recently fired one.
BUT there is always exceptions the one I can think of would be if you used nitrated paper cartridges and smoldering paper was still left in the chamber there might be a chance of a powder flash if you were careless enough not to check the chamber for paper before reloading another paper cart.

 

[LeMat1856]

.
.
BMC:

the plot thickens...!

look what i found on t-o-t-w:

British Dragoon Pistol, 1720 - 1760 era, .62 smooth bored 12" barrel, near new, unfired, with correct markings

Track of the Wolf - UNdrilled British Dragoon

Imported as a non-firing display replica, this pistol, this pistol has the frizzen is hardened to spark well. Be sure to order our #FLINT-ENG-7 best English gun flint. If you wish to fire this pistol, drill a 1/16" vent centered well above the bottom of the pan, on the flat provided on the side of the barrel. Use our #DRILL-1/16" to make this military style vent hole.

it's quite possible that they are using the same source as you've found.. *all* of their flintlock pistols are currently 'sale pending' which means they're sold out.

if only we could find the source of these.... :hmm:

anything else ?

:hatsoff:

... ~d~