Glass beding a rifle

[Rat Trapper]

Anyone know if glass bedding a TC Hawkin rifle is worth the effort?

 

[azmntman]

:idunno: Had a badly cracked stock On a invest arms Cabeals Hawkin in .58. Thought NO WAY to repair and had taken to a gunsmith buddy who had access to a stock "duplicating" machine (?). Was to cost near as much as the rifle but was in for it. He said he could fix it :shocked2: . I said OK try. He glass bedded it and it shrunk groups by near 50% :grin: Others with more knowledge and experience have said it dont help, all I can report is what happened to mine.

 

[Jimbo47]

I think anything you can put between the stock and the barrel to dampen the harmonics would help.
I've placed a piece of refrigerator magnet between the forend and barrel of a single shot rifle and it helped shrink my groups on that rifle.
I've thought about trying it on my muzzleloader.
Might give it a try and see if bedding would help as well.

 

[BrownBear]

...glass bedding a TC Hawkin rifle is worth the effort?

I glass bedded the tang and the rear 4" of the barrel of one because I didn't want any shifting of POA after installing a tang sight. It did the job for that while also shrinking groups. It's now more or less my standard treatment for a TC whether needed or not for accuracy. I just feel better doing it.

 

[timothy prouty]

If you do glass bed your rifle make sure that you put enough release agency on the barrel cuz if not your glass bedding will cement the barrel to the wood and you won't be able to get the barrel out

 

[Vaino]

My .50 cal. TC Hawken kit build was my first "squirrel rifle" and accounted for many head hits....w/ a PRB. Would never consider glass bedding this rifle....it definitely doesn't need any "help"......Fred

 

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

So, how does one handle the wedge lugs or under lugs while applying glass bed?

Do you let the bedding flow into the recesses of the stock, then re-drill the pin holes? Or do you fill the underlug inlet with clay? But then the underlug itself would push into the clay.

 

[BrownBear]

So, how does one handle the wedge lugs or under lugs while applying glass bed?

The story is a little longer than this, but basically use a little dab of epoxy to temporarily bond the tang to the barrel, then bed the two together as a unit using the tang screw and the wedge for positioning. Easy and slick, following which you use a quick application of heat right to the dab of epoxy between barrel and tang to free them up. Gives you a really rigid lockup between the two when you slip the wedge into place.

 

[Scota4570]

I did it years ago. The groups got smaller. The barrel to stock fit was not great. It made the barrel more rigid in the stock. That prevented any inconsistency from shot to shot. I was using a tang mounted peep sight so it probably mattered more. As a test you could shim the barrel with cardboard,

"So, how does one handle the wedge lugs or under lugs while applying glass bed?"

Fill the stock recess with clay. Remove the barrel tennion and fill the dovetail with clay. Put tape over the dovetail. Hold the barrel in the stock with surgical tubing while the epoxy dries. You can not use too much release agent.

 

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

so how do you keep the epoxy from getting down into the mortise where the underlug goes? Or into the bolt-hole where the tang screw goes for that matter?

I can see putting tape over or plugging the hole with clay, but as soon as you place the barrel in the stock the underlug with push into the clay, and the tang screw will certainly need to go through the hole - you obviously can't have the hole filled with clay (or epoxy).

 

[Artificer]

Excellent point about temporarily gluing the barrel locked into the tang. Also, one has to fill any open space with modeling clay around any open space at the rear of the tang where the hook comes through. This so the glass bedding doesn't flow into that area and lock the tang/barrel permanently into the stock.

Though my TC .50 Hawken I purchased in Jan. 1972 shot great for some years, the stock must have been a little soft and compressed to the point it loosened up the groups. There even was a little up and down movement of the barrel in the stock, when the wedge key was in place.

Since this was the first time I ever glassed a ML, I decided to take some pointers from how the experts used to inlet a Springfield 03 action and barrel into the stock, even though they did not use glass bedding. They would inlet the action and barrel so the very front of the stock put about 4-6 pounds of pressure upwards on the barrel. When we glass bedded service rifles, we also ensured there was tension on the very front of the stock.

Now I understand that might be confusing to some folks. What I wanted to do was ensure there had to be some little pressure for the wedge key to pull the barrel down into the bedding. This meant the wedge key would pull the barrel down tight into the stock bedding.

This also meant I had to very slightly taper the wedge key at the front and from top to bottom on the top side of the wedge key. What that did was allow the tapered wedge key to enter the barrel lug now sitting higher in the barrel channel and then pull the barrel down into the bedding as the wedge key was driven in place.

Then I roughed up the areas of the stock channel where I wanted the glass bedding to go.

I experimented with different thicknesses of steel and brass shim stock that I laid just on the flat inletted surface at the bottom of the stock channel and close to the barrel key for the wedge. Then I tried tapping the wedge key in to see how much pressure would be required to tap it completely through the stock with the difference thicknesses of shim stock. Once I found the shim stock thickness that made the wedge key force the barrel down with a few pounds of pressure, I was almost ready to go.

Now there was some unsightly gap on each side of the barrel and the top of the stock. Then I had to figure out how the glass bedding would close up the gaps. I had decided to glass bed the tang and most of the barrel into the stock, but was not sure at first how to keep excess glass away from the wedge key area. Then it dawned on me that I would only use a thin coat of glass bedding on the vertical sides of the barrel channel inlet close to the wedge key and more glass along all five surfaces in the rest of the stock channel everywhere else.

I thought about using a “tougher” glass bedding compound, but decided to use Brownells Accraglas because there is a little “give” to Accraglas and that could save other problems initially getting the barrel out of the stock after the Accraglas cured. Accraglas was also easier to dye at that time to match the color of the stock. I also thought about using Ram 225 Mold Release because it gives a tighter fit to the bedding, but decided to use Brownells Accra Release because though it would not be quite as tight of a glass job fit, it might also save problems getting the barrel out of the stock. OH, DO NOT forget to Mold Release the Wedge Key along with the barrel and tang and Tang Screw.

Clean up of the glass bedding that squooshed out from the bedding surface was cleaned up using Q Tips dipped in acetone.

This procedure not only brought the accuracy back to my TC Hawken, but it actually improved the accuracy a bit over when it was brand new.

BTW, glass bedding is allowed and done on many of the WBTS period original and reproduction Rifle Muskets fired in NSSA competition. Though there are a couple things you have to do differently with them or with other barrels that have a regular breech plug and are pinned into the stock.

The FIRST THING to prepare a barrel with a regular breech plug for glass bedding, is to ensure the rear of the tang area, behind the threaded plug, is not straight up and down OR WORSE tapered to the rear where the bedding would lock the tang into the stock for all time, unless you are willing to bust the stock to get it out. To illustrate what I mean, the area behind the threaded plug and on the rear of the tang to the left of the threaded plug in the following link is too straight up and down for glass bedding. https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/659/1/PLUG-FT-16-5

Notice the difference in the forward taper of the same area in the following example. Though that forward taper is more than necessary, it illustrates a forward taper going down to the bottom that you need when glass bedding. https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/659/1/PLUG-LEMAN-16-3

You only need a slight forward taper for glass bedding, but it has to be there. What you can do with a tang that is straight up and down as in the illustration above, is just file a slight downward/forward taper in that area and that only has to be a couple of degrees of the taper forward angle. However, some of those tangs with straighter vertical tang areas MAY already have a slight forward taper angle on them. So it is best to check that with a square before you file in that area, as filing is not needed with even a slight forward taper going down.

ALSO, if there is a hole or half hole in the solid area of the tang so a side plate screw goes through it, you have to fill that hole with modeling clay and cut it level with the surface of the tang around it.

OK, here is a real “Stock Buster” Problem if you don’t prepare for it when glass bedding with a regular solid tang. The threaded plug of the tang almost ALWAYS goes deeper into the rear of the barrel then the rear of the barrel breech face. That is not a problem with normal inletting, but is a Very Big problem for glass bedding. For glass bedding, you have to fill up that space with modeling clay on both sides of the tang and cut the top of the clay even with the rear of the barrel face. If you don’t do that, glass bedding will squoosh into that area and lock the tang and barrel permanently in the stock ”“ or when you try to take the barrel and tang out later on, it will crack/bust the stock.

Many folks I know who glass bed regular solid tangs and barrels, don’t usually use shims like I mentioned for the Hook Tang TC Hawken. However, some of the best gunsmiths for the Round Barrels used on NSSA Rifle Muskets do use one or two thin shims along the length of the bottom of the barrel when they glass bed those guns. Some use cardboard shims that will compress the glass bedding when you drive the pins into the stock. That is what I have found works best for me on round barrel rifles/guns and pinned barrels. OH, ALSO DO NOT FORGET to use Mold Release on those barrel pins and of course the Tang Screw.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

so how do you keep the epoxy from getting down into the mortise where the underlug goes?

For an inch or so forward through an inch or so rearward of the underlug mortise, you only spread a little glass bedding on the two vertical sides of the barrel inlet and not the angled sides or bottom side.

Or into the bolt-hole where the tang screw goes for that matter?

You don't and don't need to worry about it as long as your tang screw is mold released. You do clean up the glass bedding that squooshed out from the tang screw hole on the bottom of the stock, but that's all.

After the bedding material hardens, I like to ream the tang screw hole a few thousandths of an inch larger in the stock wood, but NOT in the threaded hole in the trigger plate or trigger guard. I do that just to ensure the tang screw can be easily removed, though it is not absolutely necessary to do it.

Gus

 

[BrownBear]

so how do you keep the epoxy from getting down into the mortise where the underlug goes? Or into the bolt-hole where the tang screw goes for that matter?

Folks are starting to make this sound real complicated when it's not.

I keep the epoxy out of the tang screw hole by not bedding the whole tang. Just bed the face of the inlet for the breech and a quarter inch or so of the tang.

And I don't have to snutzle futz around with the mortise for the underlug simply because I don't extend the bedding that far forward. Bedding the first 4" or so of barrel is plenty.

Having the tang and barrel temporarily locked together as a unit assures perfect alignment while installing the tang screw and wedge while the bedding cures assures proper depth. Couldn't be simpler and in my first hand experience works at least as well as fully bedding the barrel and tang and all that other folderoll.

 

[Artificer]

Just to have a clear understanding.

What were your accuracy expectations/realizations of the rifle before and after glass bedding? I am talking about using the same rear sight, load and position in each case.

Also, how many rounds do you fire a year in that rifle?

My very first three rounds out of my old .50 cal. TC Hawken were fired when it was 10 degrees above zero. I was still recovering just a week after I had been carried to the hospital for pneumonia. I brushed snow off the frozen ground and took up a sitting position to shoot. First three rounds using the TC accessory kit lube and patches, recommended 60 grain charge and the first round balls I ever cast - went into a group size of about 1 1/4 inch by 1 5/8 inch. IOW 1 3/8 minute of angle at 100 yards. After I got the correct powder charge and better lube and patching the rifle liked better, that rifle would shoot a group from the sitting position all day long that was right at an inch or under. Off the bench, it shot better than that, where my errors did not affect accuracy as much.

Group sizes after firing around 1,000 rounds at 100 yards was between 2 1/4 and 3" at 100 yards and groups were no longer consistent.

After I glass bedded the rifle, 3 shot groups shrank to around 3/4 inch from sitting or prone and less than that off the bench.

Now I realize many folks may not appreciate the reduction in group size on that rifle, especially for hunting large game, and that's OK. But to me, accuracy is all about the smallest group the rifle or gun can shoot and then the screw ups are definitely all my fault.

Gus

 

[M. De Land]

I use wax or grease on the screws ,not release agent, depending on the application.
In tenon slots, tape them off or fill with clay, remove tenon from barrel and fill dovetail with clay.
Also, very important, tape off the top and sides of the stock on the outside of the barrel channel so the epoxy run over doesn't mess up the oil finish on the stock.
I like to use release agent over the whole barrel, all eight flats. Saves lots of trouble later in clean up.
Hooked breeches really benefit from glass bedding but actually it is good for any muzzle loader as the wood around tang and lock gets pretty thin and is susceptible to oil soak over time. Glass bedding cures all these weaknesses and gives full support at all points, if done correctly.
You simply cannot fit metal to wood as evenly closely as can be molded with glass bedding.
I always under cut the wood below the stock line and fit contact at all surface areas that can be seen. This makes a footing underneath that is a very strong foundation and anchor.

 

[nwtradegun]

forget release agent. use carnuba based wood wax heavy coating.

 

[necchi]

Anyone reading this thread, disregard the multiple advice,, and just follow the posts of BrownBear;

Folks are starting to make this sound real complicated when it's not.

He's telling experienced, sage, truth.

 

[stubshaft]

+1 - On using paste wax for release agent.

 

[M. De Land]

Tell yah what, you better do some listening to some of these suggestions if your going to do a full glass bed job or you'll be screwed, blued and tattooed big time!
It really "IS" more work an preemptively intensive than it appears if you want good results and ever plan on taking the metal out of the wood again!

 

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

OK.

Sounds easier - except I might be considering this for a longrifle. So would it make sense to only bed a few inches near the breech/tang? The tennons are staples so I won't be removing them.