gluing in a barrel......

[William Joy]

First I was shocked but then I had no real answer!
Sorry, I guess I have to start at the beginning. A friend of mine shoots benchrest. His barrel is glued to the stock ( action is free floated). Talking about flintlock rifles - he came up with the idea to fully glue the barrel into the stock. Permanently! In his idea , it shoud improve accuracy, doesn't let moisture get between the barrel and stock and according to him you could even apply 2 coats of epoxy ( West System) to the stock to make it "waterproof". He even says that West System offers a special hardener which is cristal clear and then can be finished with varnish. Besides not historical correct, what would be the downsides? Would the stock crack if only the barrel is glued in but not sealed on the outside too?

 

[44-henry]

In cartridge guns the barrel is often floated to remove pressure points that could negatively impact accuracy, I have never heard of an action being free floated however. In any event I doubt it would do anything for a muzzleloader other than make it a pain in the butt to deal with and might actually cause other problems. In muzzleloaders the barrel supports the stock, not the other way around.

 

[Dave K]

The wood, even though dried, is still kind of alive. It will swell or shrink with humidity and temperature changes. The barrel, will also change with temperature. It will pull on the wood it is glued to and change the harmonics of the barrel. Since these two items are of different molecular structure with different characteristics, on how they behave, I am not sure you will ever get a "constant". I am not going to say it won't work, but it goes against all I have ever learned about, making a gun an accurate shooter. Good luck, we all may learn something new everyday.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

I'm not sure--are we talking about two rifles here? You say he shoots bench rest and his barrel is glued to the stock and his action is free floated. This is backwards from everything I have ever learned or heard about accurizing a rifle. Then you talk about how he glued the barrel and stock together on a flintlock rifle, which seems at best to be a complete waste of time and glue, but it's his rifle. Sealing the barrel channel isn't a bad idea, and waxing the barrel where it fits into the barrel channel is good and will prevent rust, but gluing two dissimilar materials together is likely going to set up stresses as humidity changes. Perhaps to the point where the wood will crack. Oh well, as long as he's got some glue left over he should be able to stick it all back together again.

 

[wulf]

How would he be able to remove the breech plug
if he had to ??? How could the action be free
floating??? Wulf?

 

[William Joy]

Well, glueing the barrel and free foating the action actually works and has been done quite a bit. And he does not own a flintlock. His question was more out of interest. He is a boat builder and says that epoxy coated wood is stable. Big wooden hulls are glued together and coated . So he thought that should work ....
Personally, I wouldn't do it - just against my idea about building a rilfe-period. However the idea is interesting. Checked out the West System Epoxy website - great product....

 

[Zonie]

I'm trying to visualize what a free floated action in a side lock rifle is.

With a modern gun, the "action" is usually thought of as the reciever, bolt and firing mechanism.
In a Traditional side lock, there really is no "action" unless one is speaking of the lock and trigger.
How someone would "free float" the lock and trigger is beyond me.

As for gluing the barrel to the stock, I agree with the others that point out that the wood will continue to change size/shape as the humidity changes. The barrel will always react to the effects of temperature although the amount of movement is rather small.
Both of these changes will create stresses which will cause things to bend a bit.

Bending isn't really a good thing when accuracy is what one is after.

 

[LRB]

Remington seems to have started this type of bedding a long time back, I think in the sixties, experimenting with their benchrest rifles. Only three, or four inches along the barrel breech are glued in, leaving the action, and main barrel free floating. This produced an almost guaranteed 1/4" rifle. I did not know the practice was still being used. If one had to get it apart, it was put in a freezer, then re glued. I tried this on an old Marlin .22 RF, and it would shoot consistant 5 shot groups of 3/8" at 50 yrds, with just standard ammo. That is not really out standing, but very good for that old gun, and standard ammo.

 

[William Joy]

Sorry, for the misunderstanding - free floating the action was done in a center fire rifle. The thought was to glue the barrel in the flintlock and of course not to glue the lock. However to seal the wood completly with epoxy...

 

[paulvallandigham]

I can see NOT epoxy bedding a tang, so you protect the thinner " wrist " are of the stock from cracking under both recoil, and movement of the wood due to humidity and temperature changes, but I still don't see any advantage to glueing the barrel and forestock together permanently.

As to sealing the lock mortise with epoxy, I suppose you can do this, but you would need a very good paint brush, and would want to put the epoxy on in a very thin coat. As you should know, the barrel is exposed in the lock mortise, as is the rear of the ramrod channel. I would put a good release agent on the exposed barrel, and fill the ramrod hole with modeling clay to keep that area from being filled with the epoxy if I were to do this.

Rather than " Free floating " the lock, I would prefer that this weak area of the stock be strengthened with a thin layer of epoxy bedding brushed on and left to harden. I still think that glass bedding the bottom 3 flats out to just behind the first barrel pin, or key, is the best way to insure accuracy. The rear of the barrel mortise, where the back of the barrel and plug abut, should also be bedded. This process will strengthen this critical area of the stock, and provide a solid platform for the barrel to seat against.

 

[ravenousfishing]

Yes, West Sytem is a wonderful product for building boats etc. It has all sorts of fillers that can be mixed with it so it seal, bond wood and metal,or be used as a bedding compound, but it is a mother to remove from the wood if you ever need to. As for its use as a finish, it has no UV protectors so it tends to yellow with time and has a tendancy to turn cloudy, even with varnish over it.

 

[renovato]

Sealing the wood is always a good idea and epoxy does a very good job of that. It does stabilize it against moisture changes. I fail to see any benefit from gluing the barrel to the wood, however. In fact, it may even have a negative effect on barrel harmonics, which is why the barrels of centerfire target guns are freefloated in the first place.

 

[tg]

I really can't see and thing to be gained doing this on a flintlock/caplock and several things on the negative come to mind as mentioned in the above posts.

 

[CoyoteJoe]

I think you might explain to your friend that high velocity centerfire bench guns have nearly nothing in common with a full stock flintlock rifle. Wood, even though very dry, will still dry more in an arid climate or if kept in a dry house, and drying means shrinking. The heat of firing and of solar gain expands the barrel. Between those two factors the length of each will change quite a bit. That is why underlugs are slotted rather than being pinned in place, to allow for expansion and contraction. Also, even though one may not routinely remove the barrel, it certainly may be necessary to do under some circumstance. It would simplify the process of fitting underlugs, you'd not need any, but all in all I'd say it's a bad idea. :grin:

 

[Old40Rod]

First I was shocked but then I had no real answer!

First of all, thank you for the thought provoking question.

Here is what my response would have been.... the basic methods of attaching a barrel to a stock for BP rifles has been used for at least a few hundred years, and is relatively simple, inexpensive, and works well if executed properly. If you are starting with a good basic system and want to change it, I look at it more as a "why" than "why not" question. Instead of what are the downsides, what would you gain?

I dunno. I think we can hypothesize that you would change the harmonics but whether for better or worse, I think it would depend... rifle to rifle, muzzle length, bore, stress-relieved vs. non-stress relieved, etc.

The forestock wood on most BP rifles is mighty thin on the rails, so expansion/contraction might lead to breakage... If you did it right, using the right epoxy and the right coverage, you might just create a "sandwich" of steel, epoxy and wood that acts like a mono-bloc material. I dunno.

As to downsides... potentially messy, added weight, inability to remove the barrel/breech. The last one can be a biggie, particularly on a nicely finished/carved/inlaid stock. Think about it. Most (not all) high-powered jobs pale in comparison to the stock artistry that you see on the hand-made BP rifles you see on this forum. If something happened to the barrel or breech... I can hear the wailing from here.

Good question, tho.

:hatsoff: