Grains by weight or volume???

[Bunk]

Gentlemen
Please let me explain what I mean by "grains".
When I calibrated my TOW 50"grain" measure it was to get consistent powder charges in paper cartridges. In that case regularity of the charge is essential as there is scant room in that .36 caliber tube for variation.
I have no idea what that 17 "grain" charge of FFFg would scale out to.
In point of fact I could care less. It is the VOLUME that fills the tube to the bullet base tightly and makes a firm cartridge.
The same goes for charge amounts in my .36 Navy and .44 Army revolvers.
I will NOT discuss loading brass thingies in any caliber.
There is another nasty tempered bird that is my evil twin taking care of that.
Respectfully
the nice twin
Bunk

 

[Grenadier1758]

If we are talking about real black powder, then the 17 grains measured by volume would weigh pretty close to 17 grains when weighed on a scale. The substitute powders are not as dense, so the substitute powders measured in the 17 grain volume measure will weigh less.

 

[Red Owl]

I think Pyrodex says a pound of their powder gives you 30% more shots, the volume weighs 30% less.

The modern powder, a slight change in the weight makes a difference in the velocity, etc. My experience is that black powder isn't the same. Volume works fine.

 

[Mad L]

So what I gather from all this (as well as the last multi page thread on this); for my Flintlock I should:
- weigh all my balls EXACTLY the same
- weigh Each charge EXACTLY
- Pression cut & weigh Each patch
- weigh the EXACT AMOUNT of lube on each patch.

Then, and Only Then, I would be getting the most my rifle has to offer...
But, what about the Amount of Pressure used to seat the patch and Ball onto the powder? It would seem that too much or too little pressure would also cause my ball to fly off into Never Land, maybe never even land...
So what kind of Pressure Meters are being used to insure all these other Precise and Careful Measurements are not being tossed out with the bathwater? Or do I just slam my ramrod down the barrel until bounces out into my hand and call it "Done!"???

 

[Uncle Miltie]

So what I gather from all this (as well as the last multi page thread on this); for my Flintlock I should:
- weigh all my balls EXACTLY the same
- weigh Each charge EXACTLY
- Pression cut & weigh Each patch
- weigh the EXACT AMOUNT of lube on each patch.

Then, and Only Then, I would be getting the most my rifle has to offer...
But, what about the Amount of Pressure used to seat the patch and Ball onto the powder? It would seem that too much or too little pressure would also cause my ball to fly off into Never Land, maybe never even land...
So what kind of Pressure Meters are being used to insure all these other Precise and Careful Measurements are not being tossed out with the bathwater? Or do I just slam my ramrod down the barrel until bounces out into my hand and call it "Done!"???

Some of your suggestions are ridiculous, especially when shooting a light offhand flintlock with open sights. Seating pressure is indeed important for accurate shooting and there are various ways to ensure uniformity. The best is by feel.

 

[springfield art]

Have you ever considered that some people who only shoot muzzleloaders, or that don't reload for cartridge guns,,,,, don't even own a powder scale?! Maybe they only have one of the adjustable volume measures sold as a black powder accessory? Maybe they developed their load using this and then made a dedicated individual measure or charger for that load based on the volume of the adjustable measure?

Of course, this could never really work and they would be all wrong wouldn't they....

Black powder measures made out of Horn are really cool and traditional; no one is out shooting a muzzle loader with a scale!

 

[springfield art]

So what I gather from all this (as well as the last multi page thread on this); for my Flintlock I should:
- weigh all my balls EXACTLY the same
- weigh Each charge EXACTLY
- Pression cut & weigh Each patch
- weigh the EXACT AMOUNT of lube on each patch.

Then, and Only Then, I would be getting the most my rifle has to offer...
But, what about the Amount of Pressure used to seat the patch and Ball onto the powder? It would seem that too much or too little pressure would also cause my ball to fly off into Never Land, maybe never even land...
So what kind of Pressure Meters are being used to insure all these other Precise and Careful Measurements are not being tossed out with the bathwater? Or do I just slam my ramrod down the barrel until bounces out into my hand and call it "Done!"???

If we get TOO precise about everything, we may as well be shooting hyper-modern cartridges! Part of muzzleloading is the art and science that is inherent in it's aura and attractiveness.

 

[Erwan]

If we get TOO precise about everything, we may as well be shooting hyper-modern cartridges! Part of muzzleloading is the art and science that is inherent in it's aura and attractiveness.

In the same way, we have the habit to say: "Sailing is the art of navigation without wind"...

 

[TDM]

So what I gather from all this (as well as the last multi page thread on this); for my Flintlock I should:
- weigh all my balls EXACTLY the same
- weigh Each charge EXACTLY
- Pression cut & weigh Each patch
- weigh the EXACT AMOUNT of lube on each patch.

Then, and Only Then, I would be getting the most my rifle has to offer...
But, what about the Amount of Pressure used to seat the patch and Ball onto the powder? It would seem that too much or too little pressure would also cause my ball to fly off into Never Land, maybe never even land...
So what kind of Pressure Meters are being used to insure all these other Precise and Careful Measurements are not being tossed out with the bathwater? Or do I just slam my ramrod down the barrel until bounces out into my hand and call it "Done!"???

So Mad L, you’re saying that you don’t have Pressure Meters for your ram and range rod??? How can this be?

 

[Bunk]

If we are talking about real black powder, then the 17 grains measured by volume would weigh pretty close to 17 grains when weighed on a scale. The substitute powders are not as dense, so the substitute powders measured in the 17 grain volume measure will weigh less.

Exactly right. Every thing I do is done by VOLUME regardless of what you call the VOLUME. That is for both Gunpowder and APP. At least that is what I have been doing since Curtis's and Harvey's Gunpowder powder and corrosive caps.
Happy was the day Winchester came out with " Staynless" formulated caps and primers.
Respectfully
Frontier cartridge Gunfighter
Bunk Stagner SASS # 85926

 

[Bunk]

No but the poor bugger is staggering.

there is never a horse so dead that can't be beaten

 

[Dale Allen Raby]

I measure BP by a calibrated volumetric powder measure. I even started out reloading smokeless powder cartridges using a set of Lee scoops. There is nothing wrong with volumetric measures. To make any difference with BP loads, you have to vary by at least five grain increments anyway. I've also used things like empty .44 special brass for a powder measure. So long as you are consistent and don't exceed the max charge for your gun, you are OK.

 

[Codger Craig Wilcox]

For my long guns, I use an adjustable powder measure set to whatever "grain weight" it throws per a specific number on the linear scale.
For my C&B revolvers, I make brass tubes that hold either 18 gr by weight for the .36 cal., or 28 gr weight for the .44's. That gets them fairly close. Once my little brass measures are made, I just put whatever they hold into the chamber, or into the paper cartridge, At least they are reasonably close by weight/volume.

 

[Erwan]

I measure BP by a calibrated volumetric powder measure.

Absolutely right.
When loading with a measure, it is a volume of powder equal to a certain powder weight...
When loading with a plastic or glass tube it is also a volume/weight or weight/volume corresponding to the weight of the powder.
When loading with dosing as machine Lyman, Lee, RCBS it is still a volume of powder.
When loading with a T7, Pyro. or other, it is a volume equal to a volume of powder...
We are always loading by volume, even if that volume is, in fact, equal to a certain weight of powder.

In another way, I'm loading by grain/caliber, for example, 45 grains of powder (or the equivalent volume) for a .45 cal and 50 grains for a 50 cal...

 

[TFoley]

Mr Grenadier1758, a gentleman of fine repute and of good standing in this house, was kind enough to fashion two powder measures for me out of wood grown in his own backyard. They are beautiful items to admire, handle and use, which is precisely what I do with them. One holds 60gr of 2Fg, the other 70gr, and they vary, as will any open-topped measure, by how closely I 'wipe off' the extra before I pour their contents down the barrel, but they are both as near as darnit to 60 and 70 as makes no real odds.

One I use for a Musketoon, the other for a S*i*e*.

 

[Mad L]

Some of your suggestions are ridiculous, especially when shooting a light offhand flintlock with open sights. Seating pressure is indeed important for accurate shooting and there are various ways to ensure uniformity. The best is by feel.

Shshshsh, I got blasted on this forum once for making such a statement a couple years ago!

 

[deerstalkert]

welll since i am too sick to care , i will toss my hat in to this circus.
about a year ago i measured out 70g by volume of each ffg, fffg, and ffffg. all Goex.
i weighed each volume. the fffg came to 70g weight. the others were plus or minus 10g weight.
i repeated this four times with the same results.

 

[Grenadier1758]

Mr Grenadier1758, a gentleman of fine repute and of good standing in this house, was kind enough to fashion two powder measures for me out of wood grown in his own backyard. They are beautiful items to admire, handle and use, which is precisely what I do with them. One holds 60gr of 2Fg, the other 70gr, and they vary, as will any open-topped measure, by how closely I 'wipe off' the extra before I pour their contents down the barrel, but they are both as near as darnit to 60 and 70 as makes no real odds.

One I use for a Musketoon, the other for a S*i*e*.

Because specific weights were asked for, I calibrated the measures for GOEX 2Fg powder. They are open topped, but with a bit of practice do throw consistent loads. Based on practice, I am confident that 90% of the charges will be within 0.5 grains of the measured average.

Powder Brand	GOEX	Granulation	2Fg
Desired Weight	in	Grains
	60	70	85​
Name	Can Valve	Finial
Diameter	0.453​	0.453​	0.453​
Calc Depth	1.618​	1.887​	2.292​
Measured	1.664​	1.932​
Calc. Wgt.	61.717​	71.657​	85.000​
1​	59.9​	69.4​
2​	60.2​	69.9​
3​	61.2​	68.8​
4​	60.2​	69.7​
5​	60.6​	70.2​
6​	60.7​	69.8​
7​	60.9​	69.5​
8​	59.6​	70.5​
9​	60.4​	70.1​
10​	60.3​	69.8​
Average	60.40​	69.77​
Std. Dev.	0.471​	0.472​
Maximum	61.2​	70.5​
Minimum	59.6​	68.8​
90 % Conf. Int.	0.546​	0.547​
Lower Limit	60.127​	69.497​
Upper Limit	60.673​	70.043​

 

[Eterry]

Doing the same thing the same way, EVERY time is what makes a match winner.

If your hunting or plinking this mostly doesn't apply.

You found the amount of powder your rifle likes best, then cut a measure to throw that amount. Or carry pre-measured charges or scales. Whichever your happy with and produces the accuracy You want. But do it Everytime.

It matters not if you measure by weight or volume. Consistency is the key. You tap the measure the same every time, you level it off using the same tool everytime. Some use a funnel so the powder doesn't touch the fouling, everytime.

I know many serious competitors who, if allowed, use bathroom scales to use the same amount of pressure seating the ball, everytime.

Years ago I read an article in a reloading manual about match shooting titled "The name of the game is The Same".
It explained the many things that can be done exactly the same, everytime.

 

[Brokennock]

welll since i am too sick to care , i will toss my hat in to this circus.
about a year ago i measured out 70g by volume of each ffg, fffg, and ffffg. all Goex.
i weighed each volume. the fffg came to 70g weight. the others were plus or minus 10g weight.
i repeated this four times with the same results.

My 3f came out a little under the amount marked on the adjustable measure, 2f was within 2 or 3 grains of 3f,, if I recall. Might have some pics of the scale and measures, will look later...

Feel better.