Greetings, Hawkens, Trades, and Mike Lange

[De_LaLonde]

Greetings everybody!

I've been lurking here for quite a while but this will be my first post. I've been into modern firearms for as long as I can remember. I've wanted to get into muzzleloading for a long time, but for some reason have not gotten around to it till now.

I've been researching and looking for something to start with. I thought I would go with a percussion piece along the lines of a Hawken, Plains, Trade rifle to start with. I've always wanted a flintlock, but I'm thinking a percussion may be the way to go for my first.

I have been looking at the usual factory guns and have been having a difficult time picking one to go with. It seemed that the Lyman Great Plains would be the best choice, but then I started reading about current issues and lack of customer service support. Thankfully as luck would have it I came across mention of Mike Lange's work and it seems to be exactly what I'm looking for! I'm looking specifically at his trade rifle. I've been reading as much as I can but I still have some questions if those in the know would care to help.

Mike Lange Trade Rifles

1. What is the difference between a "trade" rifle, and a "Hawken"? One thing I've noticed is that trades seem to have single triggers and Hawken have doubles? I could be wrong.

2. Is the Numrich barrel used a good barrel? Or would you suggest an upgrade in the barrel?

3. The #3 model comes with either an L&R Warranted/Ohio or Leman, Davis Hawken, or Siler/Chambers Mountain lock, and Davis #4 set triggers. I'm assuming these are better than the Spanish made locks of the #1 rifle, but what are the differences between them? Is any one better than the others?

I'm sure I'll have some more questions but if you could help with these to start I would greatly appreciate it. Thank you.

 

[crockett]

I'd wait a while with the hope of hearing from folks that owned both. The GPR has a slightly longer barrel and double wedges but it is a little more in price. I'm not quite sure if the quality has actually slipped, might just be that rare individual that got an unusual- not up to par rifle.
Neither rifle is an acurate copy of a true Hawken. If you do not have the TOW catalog- I'd buy one (about $10) as there is a lot of information in it and detailed photos, etc so you can see the details.

 

[hanshi]

While you could have Mike build a gun around whatever barrel, lock and trigger you want, he also builds with excellent barrels & locks he finds and buys in "bulk". I have one such rifle from him and it's everything I wanted. He builds plain (but often with exceptional wood) hunting rifles with no carving or inlays - though you just might get a patchbox if you catch him in a good mood - that nonetheless are often stunning. His work is top drawer and his prices are very, very reasonable. He's also one of those rare people: an honorable man.

 

[AZbpBurner]

I bought a Lyman GPR flint in .50 cal last year, and there was a short delay in getting one in stock from the manucfacturer, released thru customs or whatever. I've fired a few Intertrade/Lyman rifles before and my (Lefthanded) flint is well fit and assembled, and performs to my expectations with only minimal tweeking needed to smooth it out.

I've since gotten 2 Cabelas/Intertrade caplocks that are significantly older - one is about 30 years old and the other around 12 years old. My newer rifle, and the older ones all have very good fit. All perform beyond my expectations, and are easy to use and maintain.

Maybe it's because I've spent over 3 decades shooting caplocks of my own, and flintlocks of others, but I'd recommend starting out with a caplock to develop familiarity with loading, performance, cleaning and maintenance. The tie will come when you will require a flintlock.

It's been said that if you can shoot flint well, you can shoot anything well. There's truth to that, so doubtless there will be a flintlock or more in your future sooner than later. You need not sell the farm for a custom gun right away; there are many production guns out there that will serve well for flintlock practice and familiarity.

 

[Rifleman1776]

The main thing about your post that strikes me is your lack of experience. That's OK, coming here is a starting point. Before you plunk down cash for anything, I suggest you spend time perusing sites for many vendors, reading ml magazine and looking at pictures of ml rifles. This will give you an idea of what is out there. Something might appeal to you. Talk to your potential builder, I'm sure he can help you decide on something that will meet your wants and needs.
As for the Numrich barrel. They have long been considered a very good mid price range barrel. They have been used in many rifles that took home the beef at shoots. There are others considered by some to be better but you won't be dissapointed with a Numrich.

 

[S.Kenton]

Mike doesn't do special order builds any more. Also, no way no how will he do any more patchboxes...at least thats what he told me via email. What he offers is the "bulk" style rifles that he can build fast and sell fast.

 

[tdiem52]

Mike just got done building me a late Lancaster with a sliding patch box ,,turned out very nice

 

[galamb]

What do you plan on using the rifle for? - hunting? target? a little of both?

As has been noted here the "off the shelf" muzzle loaders bear little resemblance to the rifles they purport to be built in the style of.

If you simply want a hunting gun to get you started in blackpowder and see if you like it, something like the Lyman Trade rifle would certainly fit the bill without emptying the wallet.

The glossy lyman ad says the trade rifle mimics rifles designed by Henry or Leman (google original examples of either and considering this a very very distant cousin would be a stretch) but it certainly is a functional rifle.

As is most of the side hammer caplocks out there available from Traditions, CVA, Lyman and Thompson Center.

What they call "Hawken" look about as much like an original Hawken as a VW Bug looks like a Mack Truck - but they are still a functional rifle and are a good introduction to black powder.

Yes, there is better quality out there. You can drop many thousands of dollars on a custom made rifle that is so close to original that it may fool the odd professional appraiser (maybe).

I would advise you to go one of two ways at this point.

1) grab an off the shelf gun from one of the mfg's that visually appeals to you and give it a try. You won't be out much money and will learn whether you want to pursue the sport or go back to your other rifles.

2) Do a ton more research. Take a look at originals from various "schools" of gunmakers - you might love a Hawken from Jake/Sam's shop in St. Louis - you may just have to have a Bedford rifle because the percussion lock is waaaaay cool.

Or you may see a National Road patchbox on an Ohio rifle and be willing to trade your first born to be able to walk through the woods with one in your hand.

You might do yourself a dis-service if you start out with a semi-custom gun that costs you significantly more than a production gun but is not of the quality or the look of an original copy which you might ultimately want..

 

[Bugflipper]

I'm assuming the reason for the numrich barrel is cost. The last I saw they were $50. No doubt he could put in a Colerain or something if someone wanted to pay more. Not knocking Mike at all, he probably has more experience with traditionals than a lot of folks, definately a lot more than I do. He is also a good gun builder. For me personally I won't spend the $300-400 extra he wants for a fancy stocked CVA with a better lock. That's not a disperiging remark against him or his prices. I just like simple looking guns that are functional, not worrying about getting a super fancy grade scratched while hunting and so on. That doesn't mean his guns aren't right for someone else.

With his trade rifle, if a fellow wanted this or that changed on it to have it built exactly like they wanted I could see someone getting them, especially if they wanted a fullstock which isn't as easy to find in this style. If a fellow just likes the lines of a halfstock style then there are too many from pedersoli, austin and hellack, navy arms, lyman, thompson center and dixie gun works on the used market to justify the need for a custom if you don't specifically want or need a custom.
Good luck.

 

[William O.]

Here's my 2 cents; if you have an average length of pull then you may want to look at the Pedersolli rifles in whichever style you prefer and be very happy with it. On the other hand, if you have a less than average or longer than average LOP then I suggest that you talk with Mike. I've been quite satisfied with every Lyman muzzle loader I've ever owned but they never fit me quite right as I have a 15 inch length of pull and it wasn't until Mike built me a rifle around a very accurate .54 Lyman Trade Rifle barrel that I experienced first hand what a difference shooting something made just for me can make.
My western trade rifle from Mike should be here in a few days and I'm sure it will fit me just as well. The Numrich barrel will hopefully be just as accurate as the Lyman but the entire rifle will definitely be a step up from the last one in looks if not function. This new one has a Chambers lock versus the L&R which is supposed to be a better built, smoother functioning unit but I doubt I could wear either one out. If you are going to be target and/or hunting only, the Lyman rifles are all you'll need. However, for re-enacting they can become a point of contention. For dedicated target shooting you'll probably want something in a smaller caliber than what they offer and Pedersolli has several to choose from.

 

[Don Steele]

As a total pilgrim to blackpowder muzzleloaders, I'd recommend you find a pre-owned lightly used caplock production rifle in 45 or 50 cal. and use it to learn with. Scanning the offerings around the internet, I am constantly amazed at how inexpensive such items can be found if you are just a little patient. There is a progression for folks who get into it, and like it. With all respect... Right now, you don't even know what you don't know. IMHO, that's the time to put out as little money as you must to gain entry. Once you have something to shoot, you can begin acquiring the hands-on experience you need in order to know if this is something that you want to enjoy more fully or just a passing interest, and build from there.

 

[Black Jack]

For me personally, I can't think of a better rifle to start with than Mike Lange's #3 Trade Rifle. You get the benefit of upgraded lock, trigger, etc. combined with Mike's custom workmanship. I own a Lyman Great Plains and like it, but it will always be a mass produced factory gun. As far as the fur trade period goes, the Hawken rifles were but one "brand" of very good quality rifles and were vastly outnumbered by rifles from other makers, so Mike's Trade Rifle is equally or more representative of the period, and the price is equivalent to what you will pay for a Lyman and less than others. If you are really cash strapped and want to go with a used gun, be mindful that used black powder guns sometimes have barrel and rust and pitting issues and are not the bargains you expect, especially on internet sales where you cannot examine the rifle. Whatever you choose, you will have a ton of fun shooting it!

 

[Billnpatti]

:2 For what it's worth. I see by others wno have purchased Mike's guns that he is good, and he is honest and that his guns are very reasonably priced. I looked at his website and what he offers. So, I think given these facts, if it were me, I'd buy one of his #3 or highter rifles with the better grade parts. His #1 sounds like a plenty good gun but by the tine you get to the #3 and higher, you are getting a very good gun and an attractive one to boot. His prices are right in there with off the shelf production guns so I'd go with one of his guns. Keep your money here in America.

 

[De_LaLonde]

Thank you everyone for your replys. I know I'm not sure what I want yet specifically. What I do know is that I want something that I can start without having to redo sloppy factory work. At this point I'm not concerned with historical accuracy or fancy finish. I just want something that I can shoot a lot. Target and hunting.

That's why I've been looking at Mikes rifles. Specifically the #3. Having a good lock is appealing. I'm talking to mike via email right now. I was thinking of asking if there is an option available for the barrel. Just something decent that's a little longer than the 30" Numrich. What are the differences between the offered locks for the #3?

 

[necchi]

Interesting thread, Thanks for asking these questions cause the most info we get about Mike Lange is his "Rug Rat's".

For $55 more #3 offers the lock options and the Davis trigger.
The trigger thing is about the geometry of the trigger internals and the manufacturer's detail. Davis is definitely a step up in quality and will be noted with the crisp feel and response of the triggers.

What are the differences between the offered locks for the #3?

In this case it's kind of like a Ford, Chevy, Dodge thing with different folks having different loyalty,,
except that the Chambers would be the Cadillac !
The L&R and Davis both are a stirruped lock having a small linkage between the main spring and tumbler. It's just a copy of period style of manufacture. I personally have little experience with that type of lock beyond some of the cheap Spanish locks of the 80's.
Given the choice I'd not hesitate and choose the Chambers for the known superb quality, it's the only one of the 3 that offers a lifetime warranty.

 

[Rifleman1776]

It's just a copy of period style of manufacture

Isn't that a big part of what we are all about here? :hmm:

 

[Rifleman1776]

My western trade rifle from Mike should be here in a few days

Pics and comments expected.
I'm sure you will be mucho pleased with the Numrich barrel.

 

[hanshi]

Possibly the most accurate barrel I own is an old H&A .45 on my underhammer. It doesn't have to be a "name" barrel to give superior performance. The barrel on my "Rugrat" rifle is of unknown provenance but that sucker will evermore shoot.

 

[necchi]

It's just a copy of period style of manufacture

Isn't that a big part of what we are all about here? :hmm:

Of course, but can you explain to someone new to our pastime the advantage or disadvantage of a stirruped lock?
I was trying to avoid the next question;
"What's the stirrup in a lock for and why ? "

 

[De_LaLonde]

It's just a copy of period style of manufacture

Isn't that a big part of what we are all about here? :hmm:

Of course, but can you explain to someone new to our pastime the advantage or disadvantage of a stirruped lock?
I was trying to avoid the next question;
"What's the stirrup in a lock for and why ? "

Thanks now I don't have to ask :wink:

I love it, I've been shooting, tearing apart, and working on firearms for over thirty years. I decide to get into muzzleloaders and I feel like a complete moron!!

The big draw to the Lange trade rifle was the fact that for just about the same price as a Lyman Great Plains, I could get a rifle with a better quality lock, that has been hand assembled with more attention to detail than a factory assembled gun. My big fear with getting a Lyman is that it's a manure shoot that thing will even be assembled properly, and if not, that their CS is no help.

Thank you for the info about the locks. I have definitely been hearing consistently good things about the Chambers locks. I'm thinking the Chambers lock and Davis trigger will be a good set up.

I'm still debating on if I should look into upgrading the barrel. I don't feel a need to upgrade to a higher end barrel being this is gonna be my first. I just don't know if there is something a bit longer than the 30" Numrich that won't drive the price way up. In the end my biggest concern about the Numrich barrel is just that it is a decent barrel that will last a fair amount of time.