Greg Christian barrels

[jrmflintlock]

Does anyone have experience with Greg Christian barrels? I am thinking of getting one of his Oct/Rnd barrels for a fusil project.

Any Word?

Thanks!!

 

[galamb]

Greg used to use DOM for his barrels and has since gone to using 1018 steel (cold drawn seamless).

Now I'm not a "metal guy" but believe that 1018 is a lot closer to "iron" than "steel".

Whether that is good or bad I don't know, but do know that none of the other (prolific) black powder barrel builders are using 1018 (12L14 is most common, 1137 and 4140 to a lesser extent) - and I am not advocating any of the "common" steels as being superior or even adequate - that starts many an argument.

So while Greg's barrels are often somewhat less expensive than say a Colerain O/R, I personally will only build with something that "all the other guys are using to make barrels".

When you are touching off a "pipe bomb" a few inches from your cheek, I want a "tried and true" piece of pipe containing the bomb...

 

[JackP]

1018 steel is used for most general shafting in factories. It's very similar to what the germans used to make mausers from what I've read.
It in my opinion would be a lot better than 12L14.

Jack

 

[M. De Land]

The cold rolling and seams are the real problem with these steels. Most would be suitable for muzzle loading pressure, strength wise, if not cold rolled.
Remember this is steel not iron. Mike D.

 

[Zonie]

1018 and 12L14 are very similar strength, yield and elongation wise and IMO if the barrel is machined out of a solid piece of wrought bar stock it should be safe.

The thing that bothers me is when I see "cold drawn seamless", that tells me it is DOM tubing.

Bar stock is produced by a rolling process and the bars it forms have no seams.

Drawing (forcing the material thru or over dies) is only done to resize something or to smooth something and the process is not used on plain bar stock.
The process is used on DOM (Drawn Over Mandral) tubing to hide the seam weld that runs the length of the tube and to make the welded tube a uniform size.

By the way, 1018 is a low carbon steel which could never be used for something made by Mauser to fire centerfire cartridges.

 

[JackP]

Mausers were made of low carbon steel . carbon was introduced to the surface then heat treated. It's called case hardening. Same as our M-1 Garands and M-14's. Most were case hardened 8620. Soft and strong inside and hard as glass on the wear surfaces about .018 deep.

Jack

 

[M. De Land]

Jack, that is the receivers not the barrels. Barrels are never case hardened to my knowledge.

They are however "normalized" or in other words annealed at between 1000 and 1200 degrees F.
It is necessary for button,broach,cut or hammer forging.
Button barrels may go through as many as three annealings before they are finished rifled. Mike D.

 

[galamb]

This is why I put in the caveat that I wouldn't get into whether 1018 was good, bad or indifferent compared to 12L14 etc.

I would ask of you guys (and maybe gals) that are more familiar with the properties of steel/iron etc.

Would YOU personally take say a 62 cal, octagon to round barrel made of "cold drawn seamless 1018", dump maybe 120 grains of FF down the hole, follow that with a PRB or a wad/shot/overcard etc (in a reasonable amount based on the bore) -

AND THEN SHOULDER AND PULL THE TRIGGER WITHOUT SO MUCH AS A SECOND THOUGHT????

Personally, I wouldn't.... YOU??

 

[M. De Land]

The steel used in these receivers was 1325 ordnance alloy steel.
The one denotes carbon steel.
The three denotes manganese added.
The 25 denote .25 percent carbon added.
This steel is very adaptive of case hardening as is 8620. Neither are the best choice for barrel steel.
GM uses 1137 which is carbon steel that is just short of being good to harden all the way through.
That requires about .40 percent carbon.
Most .22 RF barrels are made of 1114-17.
All are better suited for muzzle loading barrels than 12L14 when hot rolled. Mike D.

 

[jrmflintlock]

Okay, So.. there is a lot of information with regards to steels. Of which I know nothing about..

As was asked, would any of you use one of these barrels? I have never heard or seen a post of any kind saying his Barrels Blow up or are unsafe or show signs of stress, but I have also never heard that they are great either.

It sounds like he sells quite a few of them so..

Still wondering... Yes or No..

Thank you all for the lesson in Metals!

 

[jamesthomas]

To answer your question, no I would not. To me its a cheap way to make "gun barrels" using cheap materials. IMHO.

 

[Keb]

I've not used any of these barrels before but the barrel's track record should speak for them instead of people echoing the same old lame scare tactic warnings without anything to back it up other than charts & grafts which can be read to show just about any conclusion one is looking for. I don't know the man or his products but I'd say he could tell you approx. how many barrels he has made & sold and how many accidents they have caused.
Just my personal opinion here. Judge the product for yourself if you are really curious by testing rather than listen to people who will repeat what they want to hear.

 

[ZUG]

Good reply Keb :bow: . I would also ask the supplier if he has tested the barrels before he sends them out or even did a "batch testing" on barrel lots. It is a toss-up for me - on one hand I would like to try one and have my own opinion but on the other hand I would like to keep all my original body parts that I was born with :hmm: . Maybe I'd buy one and test it to my own satisfaction but who's to say that the barrel will not let loose after you did all your testing as you now have weakened the barrel - or have you :idunno:

 

[M. De Land]

It always makes sense to error on the side of caution and when given a choice, which you have,why wold you not go for the better material and method of manufacture.
Original barrels were forge welded their entire length and worked fine at black powder pressure for many years.
DOM would have a more perfect weld and of better material than originals that were forge welded and made of iron, so would be an improvement in strength and material.
DOM would be stronger than originals but still has the seam. Bored through barrels have no seam to deal with possibly hiding inclusions, much more likely, than does hot rolled barrel quality steel blanks that are deep hole bored. Mike D.

 

[JackP]

MD , you are correct.

Jack

 

[kaintuck]

I don't like that idea of a weld running lengthwise........... :hmm:
marc n tomtom

 

[George]

I don't like that idea of a weld running lengthwise........... :hmm:
marc n tomtom

It's a good thing you were born so late, kaintuck, because I believe it is true that full length barrel boring wasn't possible until about Civil War times. Before that all rifle, fowler and musket barrels were made by forge welding a full length seam. Or in some cases, a seam many times that long, spiraling from breech to muzzle. You'd have been a nervous wreck. :haha:

Spence

 

[LaBonte]

It's a good thing you were born so late, kaintuck, because I believe it is true that full length barrel boring wasn't possible until about Civil War times.
Spence

Full length boring of cast steel barrels (a type of crucible steel - not that the barrels were cast in shape) in fact began in 1836 by Ethan Allen. His Patent Pocket rifles with barrels from 12" on up to 42" used drilled steel barrels. Eliphalet Remington, famed for his barrels, began using the full length boring process on steel barrels in the 1840's, and Whitworth from England began using full-bored steel barrels in the 1850's along with his improvements in the steel making process.
Forged wrought iron barrels continued to be the most widely used barrels until the 1860's when the Bessemer process for steel making made steel much easier to make and much more available - it's this latter fact that confuses the issue and causes the mis-conceptions about steel and full lengthed drilled barrels not being available until the 1860 period.
The section in C. Hanson's, book, The Hawken Rifle, which features advertisements from St Louis during the 1830's includes many adverts from 1836 onward touting the superiority of drilled steel barrels used on the Pocket rifles - this just one source for the use of drilled steel barrels.

 

[LaBonte]

Now a question for the group is Mr Christian using drawn 1018 tubing or is he drilling bar stock for his barrels? 1018 bar stock can be both cold rolled or hot rolled dependent on ones needs desires. FWIW - the only real difference between the two metallurgically speaking is that cold rolled has more inherent stresses due to the process, but they can be removed via proper full annealing or normalizing, which are not necessarily the same thing, based on various factors, albeit similar in the sense that the metal is heated and then cooled. This following pdf explains the differences and why normalizing can be important. http://www.heat-treat-doctor.com/documents/Normalizing.pdf

As for the steel vs iron question - all to often folks think that it's the carbon content that makes steel steel - it's not since iron can also contain carbon in it's make up and in fact some types of cast iron contain more carbon than does most steel, and that high carbon content is just one factor that makes those types of cast iron brittle. Metallurgy can get quite complicated and when it comes to defining steel vs iron there is unfortunately far too many mis-conceptions being touted as fact in both books and on the internet.

 

[jamesthomas]

He is using cold rolled 1018 steel.