Group inconsistant in cold weather. Why?

[ike]

At he range today. Temp about 35 degrees. Shooting 32 Cal and 40 Cal Round Ball. Using Moose Snot for lube. Shooting at 25 yds. with 32 and 50 yds. with 40.

First shots from each were right where they should be. After about the 4th shot the 32 Cal was really getting inconsistent. As much as 4 or more inches between points of impact. Wipe between each shot with Balistol and water mixture to keep bore clean. After about 25 shots I could not even keep it in a 6 by 6 inch square. Gave up

Started with the 40 Cal Flint lock. In the past I can keep the shot pattern in a 1 1/2 inch circle. Shooting at 50 yds. First three shots in a 2 inch group. 65 Gr 3f Goex .400 rb and moose snot for a patch lube. Patches are .018 pillow ticking. Feeling really good about using it hunting. Yesterday a squirrel lost his head at 30 yds. Wanted to have some fun so kept shooting. The more I shot the worse the shot grouping was. By the end (shots 10 through 15) were not landing on a 6" by 6" target. I was shooting off a bench rest. I wiped between shots for the last 5 shots. In warmer weather I have not had this issue. Some of the patches were in really bad shape shredded. In warmer weather they could be used again.

If someone has had similar experiences and has a solution please let me know. Here in MN when we hunt it is usually cold. The squirrels would be happy if I missed :blah: but I would not be happy.
Thanks for the help.

 

[Jason Lewis]

personally i've never been a big fan of moose snot but that's my opinion seems like it works pretty well for you in warmer weather. however, based on your description i'd say your lube is failing you. maybe for the cold weather you should try a more greasy lube as opposed to a "snotty, watery" lube.

just a thought, i don't know if it will work or not.

 

[necchi]

Guy's I know Dean and he's a match winning shooter, so it's not for lack of practice or inexperience.

Was your fabric "pre-treated" with your lube and stored for awhile?
Or was the mix applied to clean dry fabric just prior to shooting?

I wipe between shot's too but it's just a spit damp patch, once down an back. Could be the Ballistol wiping mix is adding too much lube to the bore during the wipe,, :idunno:

It's your patch getting shredded that has me wondering??

 

[nkbj]

Was the humidity really low?

 

[Rifleman1776]

Were you shivering?
I was just reading about your experience. :wink:
Ask me why I live in the south. :grin:

 

[jamesthomas]

35 degrees? are you serious? Me, I'm staying indoors and drinking hot chocolate myself!! I have no body insulation to be able to handle that kind of cold weather.

 

[necchi]

:haha:
Yeah armakiller, it's Minnesota. We all dig out the light jackets for this stuff in the fall, but after a few weeks of 20 and 30 below come mid winter 35 in the spring is T-shirt sun tanning weather :wink:
(it really don't get ya till it goes below 20)

And Yes, it has been dry, I'm fixin to start the Humidifier soon.

 

[BrownBear]

Never tried moose snot, so I can't say if it's temp sensitive. But any time I've run into symptoms like yours, my first test is always the lube I'm using. Tried lots, but the most consistent I've found over a wide range of temps and humidities is TOW's Mink Oil Tallow. I really enjoy messing around with formulas and trying to make my own lubes, but I gotta say I've about given up on homemade after using this stuff.

 

[M. De Land]

Try windshield wash as a patch lube. I shoot it in really cold weather here in Alaska and it works year round.
It's nothing but soap, water and alcohol but won't freeze and cleans as well as lubricates. Mike D.

 

[ike]

You gentleman from the State of Arkansas can comment all you want about the cold here in Minnesota. We do start the tanning season in the spring any time it is above 32 degrees. I did spend some of last winter in Hot Springs Village to get away from the cold and find some fish. We plan to come again this winter. For those of you who shoot at the monthly shoot in Morrilton AK I may meet you there. I plan on making two of those shoots. Some of you may know a person who lives in the village by the name of Dennis S. Dennis was a very good shooter in his day and has been giving me some coaching. I hope to win a couple of those matches. See you in Feb.

Went back to the range today and I need to give you a report. The 32 Cal is still an issue but that will have to wait for another day. Called a friend last night. Mike P. suggested that I use a thicker patch and use a buffer like Cream of Wheat between the powder and the Patch. So this is what I did.

I used Hopes No 9 as a wipe. Wiped with a semi wet and followed with a dry patch. 65 grains 3 F Goex Powder about 1/2 inch Buffer .018 PT patch with bear tallow on and a .400 round ball in a 40 Cal flint lock. I shot from a rest on the shooting bench. Target is a 2 inch black dot that turns green if you hit it. the range is 50 Yds.

First shot in the black same as yesterday. The next four shots stayed on the paper. Made a couple of minor sight adjustments because grouping low then shot 20 times at four different targets. Wanted to see if things remained consistent. Glad to say that for the most part I could keep the POI in a 4 inch circle with many of the shots landing in a two inch group. Now I am happy.

I tried balistol and water and another formula for a barrel wipe. They did not seem to work at all. Can someone tell me what is so special about the Hopes. The Bear lard did not get hard at all and the PRB went down easy. When I looked at the used patches I could see the Cream of Wheat on the back. I could see where the lands were on the patch but the fabric in front of the lands very loose. I could make my patches smaller but I do not know if that makes any real difference.

The reason I am going into detail is because someone out there may have the same problem and if my experience can help them then that is good. Again I would like to thank the members of this Forum for all of the help in the past.

IKE

 

[Flash Pan Dan]

I agree with the others that the problem appears to be with your lube. What you have done by adding a filler to your load is mitigate the effects of shooting on your lube. In other words you have not fixed the problem you have just found a work around which adds complexity to the process. IMHO

 

[Dean2]

Any kind of water does not work well in cold weather. If will actually leave a thin ice coating in places that makes the groups very inconsistent and it doesn't clean much.

In cold weather, depending on how many rounds you are shooting at one time, try using straight Hoppes 9 Black Powder Cleaner\lube,very sparingly on your patches as lube. Doing this I can fire over 20 rounds, no wiping and keep 4-5" groups at 100 yards for about 20 rounds. If you need to wipe and clean, load up a patch with the Hoppes lube and use it as a cleaner. Use a dry patch to wipe out the excess, and go back to shooting. It works well down to -30. Never tried it colder than that.

 

[Rifleman1776]

You gentleman from the State of Arkansas can comment all you want about the cold here in Minnesota. We do start the tanning season in the spring any time it is above 32 degrees. I did spend some of last winter in Hot Springs Village to get away from the cold and find some fish. We plan to come again this winter. For those of you who shoot at the monthly shoot in Morrilton AK I may meet you there. I plan on making two of those shoots. Some of you may know a person who lives in the village by the name of Dennis S. Dennis was a very good shooter in his day and has been giving me some coaching. I hope to win a couple of those matches. See you in Feb.

Please understand, I recently made nice with the Texans here :grin: . Now, I need someone else to pick on. Shiverin' Minnesotans are as good a choice as any. :wink:
But, you are to be complimented for finding Arkansas a great place to visit and do ml shooting with friends. :thumbsup:
And, do consider the big shoots at Berryville twice a year also.
BTW, back to topic. That cream o wheat thing is a waste in several ways. Powder, patch, ball. Yes, finding the right lube can be problematic. You seem to be on the right track.

 

[Walks with fire]

+1 on the Track Mink oil patch lube. I swab with denatured alcohol during winter hunts and patch with the mink oil. Denatured alcohol cleans and won't freeze; swab and dry patch then load up. Don't get it on your exposed skin if it is real cold though or you can get frost bite from it. Keep a small bottle someplace warm and it's ok.

I can't say if a zero will change much if sighted in during warm weather and then hunting in freezing weather. I suppose it would change some and I know it affects centerfires at the longer ranges alot; but with a muzzleloader at 100 yards max. and blackpowder I doubt you would see that much change. I do zero my hunting flintes in the weather I am hunting in here in PA. They don't change if the same componets are used.

 

[Billnpatti]

I am always touting Dutch Schoultz' "Black Powder Rifle Accuracy System" because I believe in it and personally know it to work. So, let me tell you what Dutch says about bore consistency and its effect on accuracy. in his system, under the heading "Maintaining a Consistent Barrel Condition" he says in part concerning the importance of maintaining the condition of one's bore when shooting "Each shot is fired from a slightly different size barrel. This will definitely affect your rifle's accuracy......". In saying this, he is saying that if one does not wipe the bore between shots, the fouling will cause the size of the bore to decrease with each shot. How does this apply to your situation? First, if you are not wiping between shots and doing it in a very consistent way, your bore will be slightly decreasing in size with each shot and this will affect your accuracy. Second, and most likely the problem in your case, as you shoot, your bore heats up and will slightly increase in size. Then as it cools, it will slightly decrease in size. These thermal variations combined with the natural build up of fouling can have a marked effect on your rifle's accuracy. Because you will see greater thermal changes in the winter months, these accuracy changes will become more noticeable. About the best you can do to minimize these thermally caused changes in accuracy in the winter is to slow your rate of fire to give the barrel a chance to come to a thermally consistent condition between shots. Add to that an extremely consistent wiping regimen as described in Dutch's System and you will find a noticeable increase in your rifle's accuracy.

If you don't have a copy of Dutch Schoultz' "Black Powder Rifle Accuracy System", you owe it to your self to buy a copy, read it thoroughly and do exactly as he says. Believe me, if that rifle of yours is in decent condition, his method will have it shooting better than you ever thought possible. It is, without a doubt, the best $20 you will ever spend on your hobby. http://www.blackpowderrifleaccuracy.com/

 

[Billnpatti]

After posting my previous reply, I went back and re-read your posting. I then recalled that you are wiping between shots. As Martha Stewart would say....That is a good thing. However, I questioned exactly HOW you are wiping. You seem to be using a good wiping solution but are you using it consistently? That is, are you making sure that each time you wipe the bore, you do it exactly the same way. According to Dutch Schoultz, and from experience I concur, the best way is to use a damp patch, not a wet patch and run it to the breach with one smooth stroke. No pumping. Then withdraw it with one single smooth stroke. Doing so will not clean your bore but keep it consistent from shot to shot. This is critical.

Obviously, the accuracy problem is more temperature related and I think my previous assessment is the more likely solution. However, we must consider all possibilities and another thing that comes to mind, although less probable, is the possibility that the thermal changes in your barrel may cause your sights to loosen and move. I know this sounds quite remote but is worthy of consideration. The next time you have very cold weather, put your rifle in your car overnight to get nice and cold and then see if you can move your sights. The cold could possibly cause them to loosen in the dovetails. This is a simple fix, just get your sights properly set where you want them and then use a hammer and punch to make a couple punch marks on the top of the dovetail on either side of the sight to tighten it.

The last thing I can think of at this time is to look at the barrel wedges, if your rifle has them. Cold weather like you have there could cause enough thermal contraction to loosen the wedges.

If you can find none of these problems to be the cause, you may have to consider a different patch or lube for winter use. Changes in the slickness of your lube can actually effect your POI vertically although I am not sure how it affects accuracy otherwise.

Right now, I am out of ideas but if I think of anything else, I'll post it on this thread.

 

[fearless51]

I shoot with alot of guys that have been at this game since the 60's and on one cold day late in the summer during a monthly match one of guys told me to up my charge 5grains, he nodded towards the thermometer. I did as he recommended and was suprised that I was shooting right about where I thought I should, but was amazed at the number of guys that were complaining because they were shooting low, my buddy winked at me. I just got back into blackpowder last year and shot alot this summer, right through the worst heat, had a blast and learned alot. Temperature variations can have a big impact on blackpowder, everything is a factor, humidity, the way the sun hits the target, mirage, there is so much to learn that its constantly intertaining and just about the time you think you've got it all figured out something else will come along, I won't even get into powder batches numbers or differences between FFF and FF when using Goex, Swiss or the new Old Eysnford...you gotta try everything and "listen to your rifle."