Gun or non-gun

[Boatncamp]

I am looking for some assistance as I recently purchased my first smoothbore from someone on Gunbroker. He had posted many pictures and a fairly good description but he left off the one key thing about it: the touch hole has never been drilled. He caveated that he does not know much about these types of guns, but made it sound like it was a working firearm. Of course it was no returns / no refunds.
Here are the facts:
The barrel is clearly stamped on the top Stoeger Arms Corporation and Made in Belgium
It is a French pattern musket ie VERY similar to what we call a Charleville
There is a proof mark of an oval with what appears to be F I (or could be a fancy box) over L G with a star at the bottom and 16.8 stamped on the side. 16.8 is the caliber of this as confirmed with a micrometer. (I have seen what appears to be the same proof mark on a blunderbuss from Belgium imported by Dixie Gun Works)
There is another proof mark on the bottom of the barrel which looks like G L with either a crown or flower at the top of each letter (very small)
The barrel is blued. Gun is 60 inches long, some steel and some brass furniture, 3 barrel bands
The lock has no markings on it, but appears to be either blued or case hardened.
I changed the flint and it does spark ok the frizzen has been hardened
There is a crescent shaped mark on the right side of the barrel in the spot where the touch hole should be drilled”¦. It looks like it was marked with a circle where to drill the touch hole but the tool strike was not flat on the barrel
The barrel is substantial, appearing to be good steel although when I remove it from the stock, it looks like there is a bit of a camber to it”¦ the bottom is definitely not a flat plain, the top too does not make a flat plain”¦. Side to side it is straight.
Ramrod is steel trumpet shaped, although looks brass colored which I attribute to possibly a lacquer finish to prevent rust
There is NO serial number, no markings Black Powder Only etc that are found on most current reproductions
Here are some of my thoughts/ hopes:
This is an older reproduction before 1968 so no serial number required
Obviously made in Belgium (Europe) hence the metric caliber marking and not made specifically for import to the USA
That the touch hole was not drilled to get around gun laws regarding export / importation etc.
That non-guns would not have the proof marks and caliber stamped on the barrel and a hardened frizzen
I purchased my first black powder firearms in the mid 1970’s( I am no newbie), but all of my long guns have been octagonal rifled barrels with very straight profiles. I have no experience with round smoothbore barrels which I know are fatter at the breech and frequently taper to the muzzle. Is the appearance of the barrel having a camber normal?

Does anyone know anything about these old Stoeger Arms reproductions?
Will it be safe to drill the touch hole myself? I will say that my primary intention for this piece is to use it during reenacting of early Revolutionary War time period where I will be firing only blanks.
Should I decide to drill the touch hole, I will proof it with about 160 grains of either 2f or 3f black powder. At this time I don’t have an appropriate ball to use as the largest that I currently have on hand are .490 balls that I use in my .50 caliber rifles. I will have to order some balls as I don’t have a black powder shop around my area anymore. What would be people’s recommendations regarding ball sizing for .66 caliber?

Any help and recommendations would be greatly appreciated.

 

[wulf]

What have you got to lose if you drill the hole?
I wouldn't go over 80 grs. Mic the bore and go
under one patch thickness to determine ball size.
Just a guess.

 

[Boatncamp]

Your right, I already lost my money if a non-gun. I am thinking that tomorrow I will go and buy some 5/8" (.625) dowel rod and try to slide that down the bore to check out whether or not the barrel has a bend in it. I did check that the pan lies in front of the breech plug. I did slide one of my small flashlights down today and it went to the breech plug but too bright to see anything but blinding light! I guess it has a clean bore!

 

[Zonie]

Here's a pretty good link to Belgian proof marks.
http://gerardcox.blogspot.com/2014/06/deciphering-belgian-proof-marks.html

A provisional proof test is done to the barrel before it is finished and mounted on a gun.

A definitive proof test is done on a fully finished barrel.

Stoeger imported a lot of muzzleloading guns.
Many of them were intended to be shot but the company also imported "trade guns" that were intended to be used for decoration only.

It sounds like yours is one of these.

IMO, the proof test markings say the barrel is safe to shoot if a vent hole was added to the barrel but before you go to drilling at what you think is a location mark you need to measure the depth of the bore from the muzzle.
Using a wooden dowel or ramrod, drop it down the bore and put a piece of masking tape on it, flush with the muzzle.

Then, lay the rod along side the barrel with the tape again aligned with the muzzle and mark the depth on a piece of tape on the side of the barrel.

The depth of the breech plug must be below the vent hole location or the vent won't work.

If everything is OK, you can drill the hole with a suitable drill bit.

If you are not going to use a threaded vent liner, I suggest drilling it with a 5/64 (.078) diameter drill.

Here's another link to Belgian Proof Marks
http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_All_Proofmarks.html

 

[nwtradegun]

all that comes up is a site called hit and miss

 

[nwtradegun]

it is most likely a belguim trade musket sold in the 60s. if it does not have a flash hole how was it proofed

 

[Zonie]

I think I fixed the first link and added another one, just in case. :grin:

 

[Boatncamp]

Zonie,
Thanks so much for the information. It definitely could be the E over LG and star in the oval. The serif on the E looks like it came together to make it look like an I.
There is a tiny second mark under the barrel that my old eyes are having real difficulty making out.
I already checked to see that the breech plug is behind the pan and the mark. I will check to see just how long the breech plug is too before I decide to drill.
I was reading in another page on this forum where someone suggested using a 1/16" drill bit first and then moving up a little if it does not work well. I have to look, but I think that I have a set of numbered bits too to go up in very small increments. It is easier to re-drill a little larger....can't put any back, I would have to get a liner if too big ie. spitting too much flame.
Someone suggested starting out with a conventional load and then moving up to do my proof. Sounds like good advice.
Thanks for your help.

Woody

 

[russellshaffer]

If you are just trying to proof the barrel it really doesn't matter if you have a correct ball. A wad over the powder and anything that will fit down the barrel and has the correct weight will work. A piece of steel rod that is somewhat close to the bore diameter and the right length to have the desired weight will be fine. No use buying a mold or a bunch of balls you will never use.

 

[Stumpkiller]

it is most likely a belguim trade musket sold in the 60s. if it does not have a flash hole how was it proofed?

That was my thought as well. If no vent it could not have been proofed. So it likely just has arsenal/manufacturing marks.

But, for that matter, US made muzzleloaders are never proofed, either.

With no vent it is nonfunctional. I'd be pretty miffed with the seller if you paid much for it. He misrepresented a display only reproduction.

It may work - if they bothered to make it like it was intended to fire. As mentioned above make sure the breech plug ends where it ought to with a dowel. If you drill into solid threads it won't fire and you have no recourse.

 

[Feltwad]

all that comes up is a site called hit and miss

I would be care full with this gun how can it have the proof marks and no touch hole ,Question are the proof marks genuine , has the breech end of the barrel been cut and re drilled for the plug so it cannot be fired Take care if it is to be fired here in the UK we would submit it to the proof house.
Feltwad

 

[nhmoose]

I've tested "NOT PROOFED " barrels with a breech plug with a vent and cannon fuse. Then if it was OK Made the gun with the real breech plug.

Got that idea out of some book telling how a first "Proof" was done in Europe. I believe it was German but that was many years ago. It made sense to me so I did that.

 

[Grenadier1758]

There is a concept called batch testing. A production lot of barrels are sent for proofing. A random sample selection of barrels are proof tested. If the random samples all pass the proof test, then all barrels in the production lot are accepted may be stamped as proof tested.

My first shots with that gun would still be with a long string tied to the trigger and I would be far away and behind a secure barrier. Use a normal load for the first test shots.

I would be upset if the gun was sold as a firing model.

 

[Bo T]

You might contact Heritage Arms to see if they have any recommendations as they import a lot of non-guns. It seems that it might be akin to the Indian made non-guns currently finding their way into the US and Canada.

 

[Black Hand]

I am thinking that tomorrow I will go and buy some 5/8" (.625) dowel rod and try to slide that down the bore to check out whether or not the barrel has a bend in it.

Not sure this will actually show you anything. Smoothbore barrels were bent on purpose to regulate POI, so having a bent barrel still really doesn't tell you anything about where the gun will hit when shouldered & fired...

 

[Grenadier1758]

But bending the barrel is done to adjust the POI of a gun that is being fired. There is no point in bending a barrel if the touch hole isn't drilled.

I wasn't sure if the OP was talking about a tapered or swamped barrel. Anyway, if the barrel is straight along the sides, elevation can be adjusted through cheek position or bending the barrel.

 

[Black Hand]

But bending the barrel is done to adjust the POI of a gun that is being fired. There is no point in bending a barrel if the touch hole isn't drilled.

I wasn't sure if the OP was talking about a tapered or swamped barrel. Anyway, if the barrel is straight along the sides, elevation can be adjusted through cheek position or bending the barrel.

I understand - the OP thought that sticking a dowel down the barrel would show whether the barrel had a bend. Even if it the barrel was bent (which is unlikely), jamming a dowel down the barrel really wouldn't tell you anything and the OP takes chance of getting the dowel stuck....

 

[Rifleman1776]

You are probably correct in surmising the touch hole was not drilled to circumvent export laws. But, I recommend you have an experienced ml shooter look at it before you do anything. If it passes muster as a shooter just go ahead and drill the hole and shoot. You may not have a problem. Or, you might have a new lampstand. But, be careful.

 

[Boatncamp]

Yes, anything could be used I guess but it is not a problem for me to buy one lot of balls for $10 to have the right ones on hand. After all, if I can't use them in this gun, I can melt them down and cast them in a caliber that I can use.
Thanks for the suggestion though.

 

[Boatncamp]

Thank you for the information that the smoothbore's were sometimes bent to adjust POI, this I did not know. I am no newbie to blackpowder, just a newbie to smoothbore's. I have been shooting BP since the mid 1970's and this is my 5th long gun plus I have 5 different BP pistols most of which I have owned and shot since the 70's. Also, I did learn when I was a newbie to never force anything down a barrel, even a cleaning jag. First attempts are always gradual or something might get stuck!