Halfway between?
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Quite a few of the Ohio guns had fancy patchboxes and inlays. These were, generally speaking, half stock guns with fairly small caliber bores.
Most of these were Precussion lock guns.
Although I'm sure there are some fancy Flintlock halfstocks somewhere, I haven't seen one.
Most of these were Precussion lock guns.
Although I'm sure there are some fancy Flintlock halfstocks somewhere, I haven't seen one.
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The Germans, French and English all made half stock fowlers of high quality, that have been pointed out to us in the past. Many of these date to the mid 18th century.
The 1803 Harpers Ferry rifle was a plain unadorned version of what you are seeking. Its appearance as a completed form is testimony to the fact that the designers of the firearm used a known pattern and refined it.
Half stocks with ribs were apparently a problem in the days of the swamped barrel. They had to develop the machiene technology to produce straight or uniformly tapered barrels before the halfstock with a rib was practical.
One of the transition steps might have been the order to trim all of the 1794 contract rifles to 36-38" and turn the last 2/3 to a uniform round with no taper. These guns still had the full stocks.
Evidence that the lathe had made it's appearance in America.
:front:
The 1803 Harpers Ferry rifle was a plain unadorned version of what you are seeking. Its appearance as a completed form is testimony to the fact that the designers of the firearm used a known pattern and refined it.
Half stocks with ribs were apparently a problem in the days of the swamped barrel. They had to develop the machiene technology to produce straight or uniformly tapered barrels before the halfstock with a rib was practical.
One of the transition steps might have been the order to trim all of the 1794 contract rifles to 36-38" and turn the last 2/3 to a uniform round with no taper. These guns still had the full stocks.
Evidence that the lathe had made it's appearance in America.
:front:
Thanks for the help guys.
Ghost, I am gathering parts to build a practice rifle cheap. I bought a half stock pre-carve at the Old Mines gathering for 20 bucks. That pretty much determines the style of stock. The rest is still open except for the fact that I would prefer a flintlock over a caplock. It will most likely be build out of all used parts or ones I make myself. I have been reading online for a couple of months now, and the late flintlock Leman rifles are most likely the closest to this kind of stock and still use a flintlock. The problem is that there doesn't seem to be a lot of info on the Lemans available that I have found. I was hoping that there might be a gun somewhere in the books that gives me something to aim at. A set of fairly ornate hardware was available if I could find an excuse to use it on a halfstock rifle.
Zonie, thanks! I would prefer to stay flintlock for my own comfort. I was hoping there was an example out there that was close to the parts I have.
Ghost, I am gathering parts to build a practice rifle cheap. I bought a half stock pre-carve at the Old Mines gathering for 20 bucks. That pretty much determines the style of stock. The rest is still open except for the fact that I would prefer a flintlock over a caplock. It will most likely be build out of all used parts or ones I make myself. I have been reading online for a couple of months now, and the late flintlock Leman rifles are most likely the closest to this kind of stock and still use a flintlock. The problem is that there doesn't seem to be a lot of info on the Lemans available that I have found. I was hoping that there might be a gun somewhere in the books that gives me something to aim at. A set of fairly ornate hardware was available if I could find an excuse to use it on a halfstock rifle.
Zonie, thanks! I would prefer to stay flintlock for my own comfort. I was hoping there was an example out there that was close to the parts I have.
CrackStock
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I am not sure how accurate Track's kit for the Leman is, but they do have a gun that I think is what you are describing at:
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/categories...KIT-LE-15-FLINT
I hope it helps,
CS
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/categories...KIT-LE-15-FLINT
I hope it helps,
CS
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Trail Creek Trade Company is located on St. Charles Rock Road just east of Northwest Plaza Mall, or just west of Lambert Field. From I-270, take I-70 east to Lindbergh, south on Lindbergh to the first exit, east on Rock Road, and their store is just past the Picadilly Cafeteria on the south side of the road. Greg Grimes was involved with the Hawken Shop when it was located in the St. Louis area. Here's a link to their web site -
http://www.trailcreektrade.com/
[Trail Creek used to be known as Mid City Gun and Coin]
My recollection is that the Stith gun is a full stock. It's a percussion gun, that's partly why I wasn't interested. There was a nice Hawken replica there two weeks ago, and then there is almost always an original Hawken or Dimick hanging on the wall that could be examined.
Doc Arroyo
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Check out http://lewisandclarkexhibit.org/
There is a photo of a rifle owned by Clark. It may be possible that it is the "small rifle" that is mentioned in the journals. But it is half stock, seems to have a swamped barrel, and was converted to percussion....
There is a photo of a rifle owned by Clark. It may be possible that it is the "small rifle" that is mentioned in the journals. But it is half stock, seems to have a swamped barrel, and was converted to percussion....
Thanks for the info guys!
Thanks for the directions. I will have to get out there and have a look. This project gets more confusing as I go. One expert says the Leman guns had slim graceful lines like those seen in a lot of the pictures referenced on the Leman guns. The next says the butt was left thick. One says many had no cheekpiece at all, but all of the repro stocks have cheekpieces. One guy says most were caplocks and that flintlocks are rare. The next guy says most are flintlock and that he produced flinters into the fifties. One says most had no patchbox and the next describes the proper patchbox. Did Leman use an under rib for the ferrules on most halfstocks? Were they swamped, tapered, or straight? What end cap was most used? Single trigger or sets? Pecatonica says most of them had steel hardware. Most of what I have see so far have the back of the lock panels rounded to match the lock. That, the cheekpiece, and the slim lines seem to be the big difference between the Leman and the Hawken guns so far.
BestShot out in Arnold has a couple of interesting guns in the rack out by the door if you get out that way.
Thanks for the directions. I will have to get out there and have a look. This project gets more confusing as I go. One expert says the Leman guns had slim graceful lines like those seen in a lot of the pictures referenced on the Leman guns. The next says the butt was left thick. One says many had no cheekpiece at all, but all of the repro stocks have cheekpieces. One guy says most were caplocks and that flintlocks are rare. The next guy says most are flintlock and that he produced flinters into the fifties. One says most had no patchbox and the next describes the proper patchbox. Did Leman use an under rib for the ferrules on most halfstocks? Were they swamped, tapered, or straight? What end cap was most used? Single trigger or sets? Pecatonica says most of them had steel hardware. Most of what I have see so far have the back of the lock panels rounded to match the lock. That, the cheekpiece, and the slim lines seem to be the big difference between the Leman and the Hawken guns so far.
BestShot out in Arnold has a couple of interesting guns in the rack out by the door if you get out that way.
Ok, I drove out to shop you mentioned and looked at the guns they have. I liked his personal flintlock deer rifle, the S. Hawken Squirrel gun, and I almost decided to try and buy an old 36 that has the bore obstructed with something and needs restoring. That shop may be the last place in this area that has that much of a selection of the old guns.
The Leman full stock copy did not excite me. The stock is worked down thinner than my mountain rifle. The inletting is less than great. What bothered me the most was the way the stock was finished. To me, it was an ugly gun. The pinned trigger guard, while appropriate, left me cold the way it was done. If that profile is correct, then I am aiming much more towards some of the Ohio guns. That is the first of that type I have seen finished that way and the finish may have had more of an influece than it should have since I really hated it. A couple of the guns there with the long thin lollipop tangs showed very good inletting. All in all, his 58 flinter in a halfstock would suit me just fine!
The Leman full stock copy did not excite me. The stock is worked down thinner than my mountain rifle. The inletting is less than great. What bothered me the most was the way the stock was finished. To me, it was an ugly gun. The pinned trigger guard, while appropriate, left me cold the way it was done. If that profile is correct, then I am aiming much more towards some of the Ohio guns. That is the first of that type I have seen finished that way and the finish may have had more of an influece than it should have since I really hated it. A couple of the guns there with the long thin lollipop tangs showed very good inletting. All in all, his 58 flinter in a halfstock would suit me just fine!
Lehman made rifles to fulfill the orders of customers over a fairly long period of time. This was a gun manufactory, not a little shop. They made what the customers ordered, several styles at a time if there were orders from different customers each wanting their own specifications. Styles were changing fast and the end users were varied. So it's not simply a case of saying, "Lehman's rifles were mostly caplocks" or "mostly flintlocks" or "mostly fullstocks", or "mostly halfstocks" etc. To exaggerate, that would be kind of like saying, "Remington shotguns are mostly 12 gauge pumps" or "Winchester rifles are mostly 30-30 lever actions."
In general, whomever is trying to sell you a Lehman (or Leman) is going to try to tell you that their model is THE accurate one.
Leman's are late period guns, most of them made after the percussion system was well established, most well after the mountain men had caught their last beaver. There are plenty of other trade guns that were more plentiful and better characterized. Henry probably sold more trade guns than all the rest combined. The Trade Gun Sketch Book is a very cheap resource that has full-sized drawings of the more common trade guns used in the West.
Wheeler Trade Rifle- 1790-1820, .53 caliber fullstock, British made, flintlock of course in this period. Simple cast brass patchbox, all brass mounts- a heavy longrifle, 45" barrel. Rounded cheekpiece.
Henry Lancaster pattern 1822-1855- all brass mounts, brass patchbox, 42-44" barrel, .47-.55 caliber, fullstock, flint until 1840, then percussion.
Henry English Pattern- 1825-1855, same patchbox as the Wheeler, round cheekpiece, flinter-42-44" barrel, .53 caliber- looks like a gun made to please those used to Wheeler rifles.
Henry Scroll guard- 1834-1855 (New English Pattern) different trigger guard, that's the main difference.
Derringer flint Indian rifle- 1809-1837. Brass mounted, 4 piece patchbox, longrifle, flintlock, 45" barrel, .50-.53 caliber.
Tryon Indian Rifle- short barreled, 35" but 1 and 3/16 across the flats, 10.5 pounds, .52-.54, nice brass 4 piece patchbox, engraved, flintlock, fullstock.
"Leman Indian Rifle 1850-1870"- brass or iron buttplate, brass patchbox (capbox, really), percussion, drum and nipple, short barrel 31", 1 and 1/16" across flats, fullstock, Tennessee style cheekpiece.
Henry and son halfstock, 1856-1870- brass mounted, scroll guard, patent breech, double set triggers, cast brass patch/capbox. 34" barrel, 1 and 1/8" across flats, .50. Cast brass forend tip. 9.5 pounds. "sturdy gun much like a Hawken at half the price".
In general, whomever is trying to sell you a Lehman (or Leman) is going to try to tell you that their model is THE accurate one.
Leman's are late period guns, most of them made after the percussion system was well established, most well after the mountain men had caught their last beaver. There are plenty of other trade guns that were more plentiful and better characterized. Henry probably sold more trade guns than all the rest combined. The Trade Gun Sketch Book is a very cheap resource that has full-sized drawings of the more common trade guns used in the West.
Wheeler Trade Rifle- 1790-1820, .53 caliber fullstock, British made, flintlock of course in this period. Simple cast brass patchbox, all brass mounts- a heavy longrifle, 45" barrel. Rounded cheekpiece.
Henry Lancaster pattern 1822-1855- all brass mounts, brass patchbox, 42-44" barrel, .47-.55 caliber, fullstock, flint until 1840, then percussion.
Henry English Pattern- 1825-1855, same patchbox as the Wheeler, round cheekpiece, flinter-42-44" barrel, .53 caliber- looks like a gun made to please those used to Wheeler rifles.
Henry Scroll guard- 1834-1855 (New English Pattern) different trigger guard, that's the main difference.
Derringer flint Indian rifle- 1809-1837. Brass mounted, 4 piece patchbox, longrifle, flintlock, 45" barrel, .50-.53 caliber.
Tryon Indian Rifle- short barreled, 35" but 1 and 3/16 across the flats, 10.5 pounds, .52-.54, nice brass 4 piece patchbox, engraved, flintlock, fullstock.
"Leman Indian Rifle 1850-1870"- brass or iron buttplate, brass patchbox (capbox, really), percussion, drum and nipple, short barrel 31", 1 and 1/16" across flats, fullstock, Tennessee style cheekpiece.
Henry and son halfstock, 1856-1870- brass mounted, scroll guard, patent breech, double set triggers, cast brass patch/capbox. 34" barrel, 1 and 1/8" across flats, .50. Cast brass forend tip. 9.5 pounds. "sturdy gun much like a Hawken at half the price".
Thanks for the info Rich! I did what I should have in the beginning after I came home yesterday. I quickly mounted the stock to my shoulder, and began scraping the butt to have it sit level with me looking straight down the channel when I bring it up. I am going to build a rifle to fit me, not history. When I sit the butt on my arm and check the length of pull, it is a little long yet. I need to decide on a buttplate before I cut it down, so that is the hold up now.
That Shop in St. Anne has an old 36 that is not marked for sale. The ramrod is gone and the entry ferrule is bent. The under rib is pulled loose in the rear and needs to be tacked back. The barrel is obstructed by something hard about 4 inches in or so. Since the ramrod is missing, I suspect that is the obstruction. The stock is cracked near the lock. It is the kind of thing that someone with a love for these guns would take and restore. If you haven't been there, it is worth the trip to look. He has about twenty old guns or repro's there. The S. Hawken squirrel rifle is a bit expensive if you decided you had to have it. Mostly caplocks.
That Shop in St. Anne has an old 36 that is not marked for sale. The ramrod is gone and the entry ferrule is bent. The under rib is pulled loose in the rear and needs to be tacked back. The barrel is obstructed by something hard about 4 inches in or so. Since the ramrod is missing, I suspect that is the obstruction. The stock is cracked near the lock. It is the kind of thing that someone with a love for these guns would take and restore. If you haven't been there, it is worth the trip to look. He has about twenty old guns or repro's there. The S. Hawken squirrel rifle is a bit expensive if you decided you had to have it. Mostly caplocks.
Above, I stated that this was built by Don Stith, but I wonder if it wasn't built by someone else from one of his kits. At any rate, I didn't like the color of the finish either, so much so that I didn't bother to examine the gun as closely as you.
About every gun is going to have less massive wrists than "mountain" guns. At any rate, the main reason I mentioned these guns is so you could look at how the details were executed first hand.
I looked it over pretty good and I appreciate the lead. By Mountain rifle, I mean my CVA Mountian rifle that has been reworked and is pretty thin. He has a smoothbore there that would have been interesting if it was a fintlock. I took a digital camera with a microdrive in it so I could take lots of pictures. I ended up taking eight if that tells you my reaction. The color and the attempt to paint curl into the wood just turned me off completely. I would say that they have the largest selection of that type of gun in this area and for a small store front shop, their prices are not that bad. For 600$ asking, there is a full sized Hawken replica out in Arnold at Best Shot that is new and still in the white. I have never gone over it really close, but I would go there first if I was looking for a caplock halfstock right now.
Russ T Frizzen
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Painting the curl was an accepted thing in period, both on gunstocks and furniture. They often used India ink and then finished over it, sealing the faux stripes in. Sometimes it can be hard to tell it from the real thing, other times it looks truly bogus.
