Hammer blowback in T/C 50cal Hawkenk

[eaglesnester]

Got a 50 cal T/C Hawken caper. When I load with 90gr of trip 7 2F and a 370gr MaxiBalls, I get hammer blow back to half cock. T/C manual states this is a dangerous condition, too hot a charge.
I cut er back to 80gr and for the first 2 shots or so I get no hammer blow back. 3rd and consecutive shots hammer blowback starts to occur. Cut charge to 75 gr and once again no hammer blowback.
My question here is, is trip 7 that much hotter than holy black? Book says I can load 100gr black with 370gr maxi as a safe load. I shot 1 round of black at 90gr load with the maxiball and no blow back. I did not try 100 grains of black, did not want to push my luck.
Triple 7 can not be that much hotter or more powerful than black or is it? One more thing I am cutting cloverleafs and putting the balls through the same hole at 28 yards with any of the above loads and does not seem to matter group wise no matter what the load. Strange indeed?

Cheers & Tighter Groups: Eaglesnester

 

[Blizzard of '93]

that is an indicator of too heavy a powder charge, but I'm not familiar with 777.

 

[Samuel]

Hi
How old is the nipple on the rifle? If it is wornout ( the hole enlarged )it can cause hammer blowback.

 

[eaglesnester]

I have fired 150 rounds with this nipple, and it is a stock nipple that came with the rifle. The rifle was new out of the box for me. One more thing, the rifle kicks like a sideways mule with 90gr of trip 7. I can handle recoil ok and am use to it as I shoot a 300 weatherby and a 375H&H, but boy that Hawken kicks like hell with a full 90gr load. I would be afraid to load 100gr of trip 7.

Cheers: Eaglesnester

 

[buttonbuck]

I loaded pyrodex when I first started with the renegade and maxi balls went to the max load it kicked like a 12 gauge with a 3 inch magnum and then some. this is a 54 cal I think I backed off to 90 grains I think maybe 80 and got better groups but not as good as hornady plains bullets gave. I would change the nipple and see what happens I recall stock tc nipples have a hole in the side close to the top so the cap would cover it drilled out maybe to relieve some pressure?

 

[Dphar]

Got a 50 cal T/C Hawken caper. When I load with 90gr of trip 7 2F and a 370gr MaxiBalls, I get hammer blow back to half cock. T/C manual states this is a dangerous condition, too hot a charge.
I cut er back to 80gr and for the first 2 shots or so I get no hammer blow back. 3rd and consecutive shots hammer blowback starts to occur. Cut charge to 75 gr and once again no hammer blowback.
My question here is, is trip 7 that much hotter than holy black? Book says I can load 100gr black with 370gr maxi as a safe load. I shot 1 round of black at 90gr load with the maxiball and no blow back. I did not try 100 grains of black, did not want to push my luck.
Triple 7 can not be that much hotter or more powerful than black or is it? One more thing I am cutting cloverleafs and putting the balls through the same hole at 28 yards with any of the above loads and does not seem to matter group wise no matter what the load. Strange indeed?

Cheers & Tighter Groups: Eaglesnester

T-7 is meant for the inlines. Its pretty hot stuff or so they tell me.
It will likely show the same pressure signs with BP especially since the nipple is surely eroded.
You need to remember that nipples always vent some gas. The higher the pressure the more they vent. The more they vent the more you need very good shooting glasses.
Shooting high pressure loads rapidly enlarges the flash hole in the nipple.
This was not a problem with the military since they shot very low pressure loads with the minie.
But the heavier loads used with picket bullets and the slug guns resulted in various measures to eliminate the problem.
The British LR percussion rifles used well designed locks and platinum lined nipples since the leakage you are experiencing is poison at ranges past 100-200 yards (these guns shot 100 gr of black and 550+- gr 45 caliber paper patched bullets too 1000-1200 yards). Strong mainprings in locks with "a heavy first lifting" kept the hammer on the nipple and gave a pretty good seal
As the centerfire primer came into use the slug gunners (pretty much the only high pressure ML shooters left by 1880) made sealed ignitions, using either primers or percussion caps.
Platinum lined nipples are 80+ bucks (a little platinum costs a lot of money.each but last very well. A well designed and made lock will cost $250-$300.
Modern factory made MLs have neither well made locks or platinum lined nipples. The only thing that works fairly well stainless steel nipples. But if the mainspring is weak and I am sure it is, its gonna blow the hammer back pretty easy not matter what.

Dan

 

[ozark57]

Back off on the loads or plan on changing nipples every 10 shots. I shoot a Whitworth that builds high pressures and that is the trade off. I shoot BP only and would be scared of subs at such hot loads. Ever consider patched round balls?

 

[boydusmx]

T7 is said to be 15% hotter than BP. With that in mind, I would suggest keeping the charge under 80 grains. Also keep in mind that PRB pressures are typically under the 10,000 PSI mark, while conicals in your wieght range can achieve pressures well over 20,000 PSI with the same charge of powder! If it were me, I would not take hammer blow-back lightly. Lyman has a great blackpowder manual that will give you some clues on what kind of pressures and velocities you can expect from various combinations of powder, bullets, and barrel lengths. Although they do not contain any T7 data specifically, you can find it on Hodgdons website.

Here is the warning from Hodgdon:
Triple Seven is a high energy product designed to provide the muzzleloading hunter with higher velocities when used in the same VOLUME as blackpowder. To duplicate a blackpowder load velocity using Triple Seven, you must decrease the powder charge by 15%. *See WARNING below.

 

[longcruise]

Nipples burn out very quickly when shooting the heavy conicals. Back when I shot the 370 maxi ball a lot from my fifty, the hammer would start coming back to halfcock after about 40 shots. Time for a new nipple.

The long range muzzle loader competitors use a platinum lined nipple. About $50 bucks a pop give or take a few bucks. Don't know how long they last.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Recoil?? How about that! You choose to fire conicals, with a very heavy charge of a substitute powder, notice that the hammer is being blown back, have no clue whether that nipple orifice has enlarged with this steady diet, but you NOW notice the recoil????


This is just several of the reasons WHY we recommend using PRBs, and reasonable loads for most shooting, saving the heavy loads for HUNTING ONLY. Crank that charge down to 40 grains, which would be the equal to about 50 grains of FFg BP, and shoot a PRB. A .490" diameter ball should work well, with a .015 to .018" thick patch material in your rifle. You will love the lack of recoil too. :thumbsup:

 

[eaglesnester]

Thanks for the response. Looks like I will order several new nipples and limit my Trip 7 loads to between 75 and 80 grains. (80Gr first shot only out of a clean barrel) I live in northern B.C. Canada and the mule deer are quite large up here as are the moose, elk, and black bears.
I would like to use PRB but I am concerned that they might not do the job on a 1200 lb moose at 75 to 100 yards. What say you round ball shooters, stay with the 370gr maxi or go to PRB? I am new at this BP thing and lack experience.

 

[paulvallandigham]

A .50 cal. MLer is pretty small for use to take the large game you describe. It will get the job done, provided you place the ball correctly. Using a conical to make up for the small diameter is simply the wrong way to go. Get a .54, or .58 caliber rifle for the kind of game you mention, IMHO.

You obviously have not shot a lot of lead ball out of a muzzle loader. And you haven't taken the time to do any comparison PENETRATION testing with RB vs. Conicals. Please do so.

If you intend to continue to use conicals, then cut that powder charge back down to 60-70 grains of that stuff. This is a very high performance, High pressure generating powder designed to be used in Zip Guns- not traditional percussion rifles. That is why the condition of your nipple is in question. Its the high temperature at which that substitute powder BURNS, as well as the high pressure it puts back to the nipple, that is the cause of your current problems. Its also the reason most of us are not going to recommend that powder, and that load for your gun.

What you are telling us about are MAXIMUM recommended powder charges with that powder. No one with half a brain in their head uses Maximum charges as a steady diet in any gun! Certainly not for target shooting or casual plinking!

Do Not sneeze at the MV of a 370 grain bullet going out the barrel at about 1100 fps. First, if its actually going that slowly, its below the speed of sound, and will probably be far more accurate for that reason. That heavy bullet- more than 3/4 oz. of lead!--- is like a freight car turned loose: once going, its very hard to stop it. Inside 100 yds, the distance at which most hunters can consistently shoot Open sights ACCURATELY, that freight car is going to make meat. My Hodgdon Data manual shows 80 grains of FFg Black Powder generates 1199 fps. with that 370 grain bullet. Since your substitute produces 15% MORE velocity with the same load, reduce the Volume measure of that powder by at least 15% to get the velocity in the same range. The recoil will be more tolerable-- altho I still recommend shooting PRB( that weight 177 grains- or less than half the weight of your bullet)for most practice, and chores. With less accuracy you will be able to place that bullet more accurately with each shot. Since this is basically a SINGLE SHOT firearm, that first shot is going to be the ONLY shot you get at the game animal you are hunting.


Do the comparison penetration testing. Use wet newspaper bundles or do as I did, and use 1 inch pine boards, spaced 1 inch part. I fired not only my soft lead balls, using target and hunting powder charges, but then fired various bullets from other guns, both modern and BP cartridge, FOR COMPARISON. It is an education that will serve you well. :hatsoff:

 

[Little Wattsy]

Hi
How old is the nipple on the rifle? If it is wornout ( the hole enlarged )it can cause hammer blowback.

I'd start here too...That gun SHOULD be able to handle 80 grains of 777 and a connical. IF it keeps happening wit ha new nipple then I would send the lock back to T/C and have the spring checked..

 

[MSW]

i'd go with blain old black, and work up a charge for PRB. this will allow you to practice with the rifle and be able to reliably hit your target. then, if you're enamored of maxiballs and zip- gun powder, by all means build a load you like.

having said that, i agree with paul- i don't really think you need a maxiball and a magnumitis high pressure load; prb over black will 'do its thing' just fine if your shot is on target.

just one guy's opinion.

 

[longcruise]

Thanks for the response. Looks like I will order several new nipples and limit my Trip 7 loads to between 75 and 80 grains. (80Gr first shot only out of a clean barrel) I live in northern B.C. Canada and the mule deer are quite large up here as are the moose, elk, and black bears.
I would like to use PRB but I am concerned that they might not do the job on a 1200 lb moose at 75 to 100 yards. What say you round ball shooters, stay with the 370gr maxi or go to PRB? I am new at this BP thing and lack experience.

Just a couple of observations.

I tend to agree with you that the .50 with PRB is on the light side for moose. It is more than adequate for mule deer, even the most gigantic of them. This has been shown over and over again by the use of the .50 on mulies.

Your lock spring is probably ok. The TC lock does not have the spring strength of a traditional style lock spring, but it is plenty adequate. Mine is still going strong after 30 plus years of use. In a way, the weaker coil spring of your lock is serving you well in that it is warning you in advance of a worn out nipple!

For about eight years in the seventies I shot and hunted exclusively with the .50 cal 370 grain maxi ball. In addition to that, I did a lot of load testing with a chronograph during the early '80's. What I found was that the increase in velocity from an 80 grain charge of goex ffg and a 100 grain charge of same was minimal, even though the additional recoil was significant. Eighty grains of goex ff pushed the maxi at 1295 to 1315 fps. This is more than enough velocity to do the job on your moose. But, what I found was that the 370 maxi was a very poor performer on game. It was a slow killer on both mule deer and elk. Others have had this same experience. We all have our own opinions on "why", but I'll tell you mine at least;

I think that the primary problem with the maxi is the pointy nose shape. Wound channels are created by the flat meplat of the bullet and that meplat is very small on a maxi. I disagree with those who think that the wound channel is created by the wadcutter aspect of the maxi or any other bullet. It's my belief that the very small meplat of the maxi cuts a small wound channel and that the wadcutter aspect of the bullet follows through that wound channel without doing any additional work. That's just my opinion. Other's will differ with it!

I only recovered one Maxi from game and it did not show much sign of expansion. I don't think you can rely 100% on expansion to provide a good wound channel with ml bullets at ml velocities.

The other possible problem with the Maxi and any other grease groove ml slug is that once it is pushed down the bore, it has pretty much swaged to a fit and, regardless of how hard it may be to start, it ends up subject to moving up the bore while you handle the gun. I observed this event once myself in my wife's rifle and a hunting partner also had this same experience. In both cases the problem was detected before shooting the rifles!

So, you could move up to a .58 and shoot round balls or you could stick with the .50 and conicals. My only advice is that if you plan to stick with conicals, then use a better design.

We have a member here (idaho ron) who can give you some excellent advice on that score.

 

[Dphar]

Thanks for the response. Looks like I will order several new nipples and limit my Trip 7 loads to between 75 and 80 grains. (80Gr first shot only out of a clean barrel) I live in northern B.C. Canada and the mule deer are quite large up here as are the moose, elk, and black bears.
I would like to use PRB but I am concerned that they might not do the job on a 1200 lb moose at 75 to 100 yards. What say you round ball shooters, stay with the 370gr maxi or go to PRB? I am new at this BP thing and lack experience.

You need a 69 caliber RB rifle.
I have friends in B.C. and they have found the large RB far more effective than the Maxi-ball.
The RB, no matter what you might read, is a pretty effective hunting projectile when sized right and used within its range. For most this is 130 yards or less.

The 50 caliber RB is on the light side for the massive bones involved, the 54 is better and a .62 better yet etc etc.
No matter what anyone may tell you bullets like the Maxi and the various other modern bullets are not HC for MLs and they have safety problems beyond high pressure.
I would further point out that velocity in blackpowder firarms only need be adequate. Trying to magnumize a ML does not work in most cases.
I have sent a PM that might be a help as well.
Dan

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

Well, here's my 2 cents' worth! My son and I have shot probably more than a thousand 370 grain Maxi's out of our Trade Rifles. Your Hawken is almost the same (28" barrel, 1 in 48 ROT, percussion .50).

Here's what I see from your story: First of all, you need to switch to real black, and believe it or not to 3Fg Goex! That's what we use: a 72 grain charge, a lubed wonder-wad and the 370 grain Maxi. Tested on a chrono to over 1341 FPS! Here's how: The 3Fg just finishes burning BEFORE the Maxi exits the bore. Your 777 charge is too hot and the hammer comes back to half-cock. The 777 is done burning way before it needs to be, closer to the nipple, causing the problem! By lengthening the "burn cycle" and thus reducing the peak pressure sustained, you can actually reduce recoil and keep the hammer from coming back up off of the nipple!

A 28" barrel will only burn so much black powder INSIDE the bore, and the rest is partially ignited on the muzzle flash. You reach what I call a "point of diminishing return" whereby additional powder gets you a bigger boom and more recoil but HARDLY ANY MORE SPEED!

There's a fine balance between too much powder, too hearty a powder (777), an eroded nipple and too heavy a projectile. You have to back-off somewhere to bring yourself and your rifle into a state of balance. And change worn nipples often for the tightest groups!

As other posters have noted, your groups will suffer greatly when the hammer comes back to half-cock by itself! This is due to the variable of missing pressure exerted upon the Maxi if the hammer would stay "put". So now you don't have a constant, you have a variable! Trouble is it might never be the same twice, due to a number of factors covered by other posters including nipple erosion. This means that your high speed 777 groups will start looking like a shotgun blast on the target paper!

Enjoy the rifle for what it is! Do get the biggest bang you can out of it, but do it safely! Your rifle isn't a magnum and will never be one. Consider PRB's for smaller game and target work...and oh, by the way, the 72 grain charge of 3Fg Goex wins matches with either projectile!

Have fun and shoot safely!

Dave

 

[Idaho Ron]

Got a 50 cal T/C Hawken caper. When I load with 90gr of trip 7 2F and a 370gr MaxiBalls, I get hammer blow back to half cock. T/C manual states this is a dangerous condition, too hot a charge.
I cut er back to 80gr and for the first 2 shots or so I get no hammer blow back. 3rd and consecutive shots hammer blowback starts to occur. Cut charge to 75 gr and once again no hammer blowback.
My question here is, is trip 7 that much hotter than holy black? Book says I can load 100gr black with 370gr maxi as a safe load. I shot 1 round of black at 90gr load with the maxiball and no blow back. I did not try 100 grains of black, did not want to push my luck.
Triple 7 can not be that much hotter or more powerful than black or is it? One more thing I am cutting cloverleafs and putting the balls through the same hole at 28 yards with any of the above loads and does not seem to matter group wise no matter what the load. Strange indeed?

Cheers & Tighter Groups: Eaglesnester

I only shoot conicals and I am going to say you are over charged.
The load I have for my 50 Green Mountain barrel is 100 gr of pyrodex Select RS and a Hornaday 410 gr conical. This load is 1500 FPS out of the muzzle.

My son’s rifle is the same but the load is different. It uses a 460 gr Paper patched bullet made with the Lee C-501-440-RF mould. I use 80 gr of pyrodex P with this load.
I get 1310 FPS with this load. This load has the energy to go after moose in my opinion. It is a very powerful hard-hitting, and hard recoiling load. Recoil is stiff but my son used that load when he was 14 to shoot a deer and he shot the gun a lot practicing. He never complained about the recoil. I find it as stiff but others might say HARD recoil.

A friend of mine has a TC White Mountain carbine with a 21” barrel. He wanted it to get to 1500 FPS. He could not do it with Pyrodex, so he got T7. He got 1500 FPS with 100 gr of T7 and his stock cracked. T7 is a very hot powder but that in it’s self does not make it the right powder for every gun. In mine I get a crud ring in the bottom of the barrel that does not help with accuracy.

I have NO experience with TC Maxi balls. I can say that the Hornady great plains bullets are good bullets for deer sized game. The reason I say deer sized game is that they expand a LOT. I think that they would be a good bullet for elk sized game but I would keep the shots under 100 yards due to they expand a lot.
The Paper Patched 460 gr is MORE than enough bullet at 1300 FPS for anything you need to use it on. You would need a 1-28 twist to make the 460 gr shoot good. I have used that load with good results on Mule deer. My friend used that load and hit a mulie buck in the front shoulder and the bullet exited out the hindquarter. The buck was dead in his tracks. You can search for more info on the 460’s on this site under my name. Ron

 

[William O.]

Thanks for the response. Looks like I will order several new nipples and limit my Trip 7 loads to between 75 and 80 grains. (80Gr first shot only out of a clean barrel) I live in northern B.C. Canada and the mule deer are quite large up here as are the moose, elk, and black bears.
I would like to use PRB but I am concerned that they might not do the job on a 1200 lb moose at 75 to 100 yards. What say you round ball shooters, stay with the 370gr maxi or go to PRB? I am new at this BP thing and lack experience.

Triple 7 is fine for sidelocks, and as has been stated, reduce your loads by 15%. By all means, try shooting PRB and see if you can get the same accuracy with them as you do using the maxi-ball. Start with 45 grains of T-7 at 50 yards to begin with, shoot three, note the grouping and increase by 5 grains not to exceed 90gr. Once you determine the most accurate combination, increase your distance to 100 yards. Study each game animal to learn where and how large it's vital zone is and as long as you can keep everything within that area at 100 yards, PRB will do fine.

Also, take a look at the AMPCO bronze nipples as a replacement for what you've got on it now.
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/TableList.aspx?catID=14&subID=171&styleID=785

 

[Zonie]

Hodgdon, the maker of Triple 7 is the company that specifically says that this powder is 15 percent more powerful than regular black powder and that all black powder loads should be reduced by 15 percent if this powder is used.
READ MORE HERE
This is not a "he said/she said" guideline.
Hodgdon goes on to point out that failure to follow their suggestion may result in your death.

Using this rule, if a book says you can shoot 100 grains of black powder under a 370 grain slug, that 100 grain max becomes 85 grains MAX if your using Triple 7.

As was mentioned shooting heavy conicals can raise the breech pressure to very high (for Traditinal style muzzleloaders) pressures.

Lyman's Black Powder Handbook doesn't list any pressures for Triple 7 but it does list some for Pyrodex (which is supposed to be somewhat similar to regular black powder).
A 370 grain slug over 100 grains of Pyrodex Select produced a breech pressure of 24,800 psi!

IMO, relying on hammer blowback, causing the hammer to catch at half cock is a rather poor way to judge high breech pressures.
This is especially true if the gun has a double set trigger.

First off, the hammer could have been blown back to a position just shy of engaging the half cock notch, and the shooter wouldn't have the foggiest idea that this occurred.
Also, if the gun has a double set trigger, the hammer may have been blown back far beyond the half cock notch and the fly would prevent the sear from engaging the half cock notch as the hammer fell. This would end up with the hammer sitting proudly on the nipple and the shooter would feel that the load was quite safe when in fact, it was ready to blow the gun up.

Any shooter of these heavy slugs needs to be aware of these things.
They need to follow the guidelines set up by the manufactures and quit trying to make a magnum out of their guns.

OK. I'll get off the soap box now.