Hardining a tomahawk

[BigDeutscher]

I have formed my hawk head and finished it
What is the best method to hardin it

 

[J.D.]

What alloy is it made of?

 

[BigDeutscher]

it was a very old german ax, good steel
I heated it to glowing then put it in sand over night
Still kind of hard to work on
Should i quench it in water or oil?
And at what color should i heat it to?

 

[LRB]

Try a warmed thin oil first. You only need to harden maybe an inch or a little more from the edge up. Use water only as a last resort. Then you will need to temper it. Since we don't know the acual steel, that may be trial and error.

 

[BigDeutscher]

What color heat for the first inch or so of the blade?
Then instructions for temper ,please
Thanks
Deutsch

 

[LRB]

I would take it, just that area of the blade, to a bright red just turning to a tangerine color, but everyone does not see color quite the same. Do it in very dim light. Quench in canola oil heated to about 125/30°. It is going to flame up, so prepare yourself. The flame will go out as soon as the temp drops. Use enough oil that you can move the blade fore and aft when it goes in. Keep it moving for maybe a minute and that should do it. If a file won't cut it, you are at least in the ball park. If that doesn't work, try again. Beyond that, brine would be the next choice, but there is some risk of cracking. I would temper at 500° for two one hour soaks. Use your kitchen range along with an oven thermometer, then try it out on a piece of oak.

 

[BigDeutscher]

Thanks so much
I will try it out today
Deutsch

 

[necchi]

Umm, for what it's worth,
The Hawk Toss competitor in me wouldn't want the blade hard, :idunno:
I wanna be able to sharpen that edge for cutting cards and with all the hawks I have,
(9-some cast some forged) I use a file then a stone to hone the edge.

 

[Twice boom]

Not to be disagreeable with anyone .
I always say, when in doubt harden in water..

One other thing about hardening up the edge only. I too though that was a good idea until my hand made medical core bolo I made for Horse back packing split right at the hardening line.. Hard lesson learned that if you going to quench harden the whole ax than draw from the top down..

A throwing ax with go through lots of stress just like my Bolo did ,not only by the force it takes to stick the ax in to the block of wood ,but more so on the off thrown hits.. Just something to think on.
Twice.

 

[LRB]

Plain water is about as poor of a quench as motor oil, only with motor oil, you will still have a one piece implement left to try something else with if it doesn't work. I quenched a hatchet in water once, in the early seventies. It disintegrated into two handfuls of pieces. We don't know what steel he has, and from what he described as to the anneal, I seriously doubt he got very much of one. Yes, he might have a stronger head if all of it was heated and quenched, but unless he has a serious torch, how would he temper the upper portion back enough? Mapp gas maybe, if he has it. The whole thing could be spring tempered if he had a controlled heat source, but I doubt he does, and his kitchen range would not be hot enough to do it.

 

[Twice boom]

I don't know either the type of steel he is using. That's why I suggested the water . You can harden with water an O type steel to where you can not harden a W type steel with oil and why I say when in doubt. Brine of course would do a better job providing he knows not to over heat..

If he wanted deferent levels of temper at different parts of he Hawk he can do it on his forge by laying a steel plate over his forge fire. Once hot he can lay the heavy portion of the hawk with the edge over hanging and watch the colors flow towards the edge. Quench when the desired color reaches the edge area. And repeat but this time only allow the hawk to get hot enough just to relieve the stress from the temper quench.

I know it's a bit harder to do than the way I make it sound. But better to try and fail and not to try at all. Besides if it does not come out as well as he wanted, he can anneal and try again That’s how we all learned, and still learning.
Twice.

 

[LRB]

Have you ever hardened 01 in water?? It will come apart, and what is your definition of overheating? Without knowing what steel it is, we don't really know what heat to take it to.

 

[Twice boom]

What type of steel does he have? and to what heat he should bring it up to? I don't know the type of steel but for what he is making to a none magnetic state will get him where he needs to be ,in either water or brine and if he is lucky enough to be working with O type steel oil will do him just as well. It’s a guess game Wick and what I think I'm giving him is a pretty good chance to do it right. IN my none argumentative opinion.
What is over heating. The obvious is obvious when you are working with known type. For the unknown type anything over a none magnetic state is o0ver heating when the intent is to quench in water or brine. What I'm saying is when quenching with water or Brine e specially the results will be just as good if you quenched 150 or possible 200 degrees less, for knife /hammer/hawk or a hatchet.
Is all what I said above the best method. Maybe maybe not,then again we do not know what the type of steel he is working with.That's why I said from outset,when in doubt..
Twice. .



.

 

[anvil1231]

I have to agree with Wick. If he uses water to quench he may be asking for trouble. Especially if he quenches the whole head. Chances are it is going to crack around the eye. The eye is going to try to cool alot faster there then the mass of the blade and you know what that means. Oil and an edge quench and then temper is all that is going to need to be done.

 

[LRB]

Twice, In the process of hardening, you don't heat steel to match a quench medium. You heat steel to get a good homogenous solution of the ingredients in the steel. Non-magnetic, 1414°, will not do that. Period. The carbon will not completely dissolve and disperse evenly within the iron at that temp. That's not my opinion. That is a metallurgical fact. Making steel hard is only part of the process. Providing enough heat and time to allow an homogenized solution is the other, and non-magnetic will not get it done. Non-magnetic is basicly level two of three levels of heat required to do this. That you may not cut the steel with a file, means nothing to the acual condition of the steel. If one can picture carbon islands in a lake of iron, the object is turn that lake into mud by dissolving the islands. These carbon islands are hard and will allow a file to skip right on over them without touching the water(iron), so most would conclude that the steel is hard, and good, but that is because the file did not reach the water. When you dry the lake of mud,(quench) you have a solid bed of sand. If you quench at just non-magnetic, you have a lake of islands, which equal less edge holding ability. If you cannot get a grasp of that, I give up. :surrender:

 

[anvil1231]

Twice, In the process of hardening, you don't heat steel to match a quench medium. You heat steel to get a good homogenous solution of the ingredients in the steel. Non-magnetic, 1414°, will not do that. Period. The carbon will not completely dissolve and disperse evenly within the iron at that temp. That's not my opinion. That is a metallurgical fact. Making steel hard is only part of the process. Providing enough heat and time to allow an homogenized solution is the other, and non-magnetic will not get it done. Non-magnetic is basicly level two of three levels of heat required to do this. That you may not cut the steel with a file, means nothing to the acual condition of the steel. If one can picture carbon islands in a lake of iron, the object is turn that lake into mud by dissolving the islands. These carbon islands are hard and will allow a file to skip right on over them without touching the water(iron), so most would conclude that the steel is hard, and good, but that is because the file did not reach the water. When you dry the lake of mud,(quench) you have a solid bed of sand. If you quench at just non-magnetic, you have a lake of islands, which equal less edge holding ability. If you cannot get a grasp of that, I give up. :surrender:

Well said. :applause: :thumbsup:

 

[Twice boom]

Oh I grasp it all right.
But if he waits to find away to detect Islands and so forth the hawk may never get made since he nor any of us know at what particular heat the island will all be in their proper place to quench.That's why I suggested what I did . No need for :surrender: flag I aint arguing. :grin:
Later Pard.
twice.

 

[lonehunter]

:rotf:

 

[hoochiepapa]

See there? Brines are cool!! :rotf:

 

[Twice boom]

See there? Brines are cool!! :rotf:

Yep when you're in doubt turn to Brine. :thumbsup: :wink:

Twice.