Have a sparking problem?

[musketman]

Has Your "Frizzen" turned to butter?

It HAS?? But that's impossible!
Then why are you getting whimpy sparks?
Could it be the frizzen has lost it's hardness?
I guess this could happen....

On the other hand, if your flintlock is no longer giving you that spectacular, blinding shower of sparks, you definitely have a problem -- one that MAY have nothing to do with the hardness of your steel!

Unless your frizzen was poorly hardened in the first place, it is highly unlikely that the temper has gone out of it. Most of our muskets simply don't see the heavy use that would bring this condition about in this day and age.

With that in mind, a poorly stored musket could be the source of your woes! Many moons ago, some wise individual once told me to always keep my musket at half-cock because; "it's safer and better for the spring". A year or two back, I found out that this is simply not true. In fact, in his 1776 edition, Cuthbertson states:

[When the firelocks; are not in use, the cocks should always be let down, as nothing more effectually weakens the main springs, than constantly keeping them on the half-bend:]

When a musket gets too easy to cock, the main spring is likely the problem for the weak sparks you get at the pan.

Since replacing the mainspring seemed cheaper and less hassle than finding, fitting and hardening a new frizzen, you may want to try it to see what happened.

So, if your flint has ceased sparking, consider putting in a new mainspring. It only takes a small amount of filing and fitting to install one in the Italian-made musket.
With a minimal amount of skill a few simple tools and a little patience, chances are you will have your Bess throwing sparks like new.

I now store all of my muzzleloaders empty with the hammer/flint all the way down. I only use the half-cock while hunting or shooting.

Mainsprings for Besses, Charleville's, and many rifles can be had from Dixie Gun Works.

 

[Birddog6]

YEs, definately good advice. Also stor it with the Frizzen open as the frizzen spring has less tension on it in this position. This is another thing that will cause less sparks & chipping of the flints, a weak frizzen spring.

 

Actually, I don't think you need to worry about the frizzen spring. The frizzen spring is only there to keep the frizzen from flopping open when it's closed and from bouncing back and hitting the flint when fired, not to offer resistence to the flint. A good lock will spark just fine with no spring at all. Most cmmercial locks have too heavy a spring. This is why the English added the wheel to the toe and polish all bearing surfaces. You want to reduce resistence to the flint as much as possible while maintaining control of the frizzens movement.

Cody

 

[Randy]

I respectfully beg to differ with Cody's statement regarding the frizzen spring. "--not to offer resistance to the flint."

Thats exactly the job of the frizzen spring, to offer resistance to the flint. The mainspring and frizzen spring must be balanced against each other to function correctly. Polishing and adding rollers was to reduce friction as much as possible so the geometry and spring tension were the main factors in play. The frizzen spring needs to be just the right tension to absorb the momentum of the falling cock and hold the frizzen against the flint as it scrapes down the face of the frizzen, and then let the frizzen snap open at just the right moment. Lockmakers of olden days were very precise about hardening and tempering their springs, and often rehardened one or the other many times to get just the right amount of tension so the two springs would properly "balance" against each other.
Yes, you can get sparks with no frizzen spring but not as many or as hot as with a good strong spring. Many of the antique locks I've seen have very strong springs which lends to faster lock time and more sparks. Even though the springs on antique locks may seem smaller, they are usually quite strong for their size.

Modern locks should be infinately better due to our technology in the field of metalurgy. However I dont believe this technology is fully employed in most modern locks. They do spark and work for a reasonable time, but we as consumers are not demanding much more than that. (If our lives dependen on reliable ignition maybe we would) Also since many of us have not had the opportunity to shoot a truly good antique flintlock we don't know what we are missing.

Check out Muzzleblast April 2003 article on page57-59. Jim Chambers and L.C. Rice know their flintlocks.

It is best (and safest) to store a flintlock with tension off the springs ie. cock fully down and frizzen open.

Horse Dr.

 

[Birddog6]

Both the springs must be balanced. You will find the newer locks use a strong mainspring to get you the speed in the ignition time, thus a light spring on the frizzen will usually nor produce sparks as well as the flint hits it so hard it knocks it back prior to it scraping metal off, thus no sparks. And also this sometimes causes the frizzen to flop back & chip/knap the flint. I have had this recently happen on 2 L&R Jaeger locks & also just happen on a Davis Jaeger lock. New frizzen springs on both that were stronger made a difference of 8-10 shots per flint ot over 40 shots per flint.

 

[Birddog6]

Also, the roller on the frizzen was added to it to reduce friction in thoughts of making it faster, not so you could use less frizzen spring tension. And if you time one with a slow motion camera, it is faster, however, most cannot tell a noticable difference. Some say they can, some say they can't.
Same as ignition timing using 3F or 4F in a pan. Actual timed difference with slow motion cameras is in the Hundredths of a second and is not a noticable factor by most people.

 

[tg]

It has always been my understanding that a balance of sorts between these two springs gave the optimum spark and life of flint, and that with any spring loaded device that it is best to leave no pressure on the spring when not in use for a period of time, I never stored my Beaver traps "cocked" for this reason. I think I have seen a period source that mentioned the advantage of not leaving a gun "cocked" when not in use but cannot find it so it must remain in the realm of hearsay.

 

Horse Doctor, I'm at a bit of a disadvantage as I do not have access to the article you mention and far be it for me to oppose the opinion of Jim Chambers. Would it be possible for you to quote some of the article regarding frizzen springs? I would really appreciate that. My opinions are subject to change without notice providing opposing arguments warrant it. You make some interesting point and while I'm not quite sold, I am giving your position some serious consideration. I ran an exreriment on my Chambers lock. I blackened the frizzen face with a felt marker and snapped the lock. Observed the sparks and noted the scrape marks on the frizzen. Did this 4-5 times. Then I removed the frizzen spring and did the same thing. There was no difference in the sparks that I could see. What I found interesting is that the scraping on the frizzen started higher (about 1/8") up the frizzen face with the spring than without. The scraping continued right off the bottom of the frizzen with and with out the spring. The flint scraping right down to the bottom of the frizzen without a spring doesn't surprise me. The reason I don't think the spring is nessasary to apply resistance is because as the frizzen opens, it is rising against the downward sweep of the flint. The flint is trying to drive the frizzen down but is also invading the frizzens space at rest forcing the frizzen to move out of the way. The only way the frizzen can move to make room for the invading hammer, is to rise against the flint causing a constant pressure until the flint clears the bottom of the frizzen.

Cody

 

[Randy]

Cody'
Some of my speaking is merely parroting what the "experts" have told me, and some from personal experience, So I'm still open to changing my opinions too.

I expect the reason for the difference in where the scrape marks start is due to the flint not "catching" on the frizzen as quickly without the spring pushing it against.

Obviously the lock geometry is good on your lock for it to function as you said. Keep in mind the function of the frizzen spring is also to stop the cock, or at least absorb most of its energy before it bottoms out. The shoulder on the cock and the back of the tumbler ultimately stop the cock but is not good for them to do it alone. I've seen bridle screws broken by simply tripping the cock without the frizzen closed. Also with a weak frizzen spring th frizzen will bounce back and chip the flint. It sounds like your lock absorbs most of the momentum even without the frizzen spring. Your explanation certainly makes sense.

From the article: L. C. Rice (Formerly of L&R Locks) suggests that flint life is prolonged when the frizzen and mainspring are properly balanced against each other. In a side bar Jim Chambers describes testing this balance by setting off the lock in your hand and watching how it moves or jumps. He says, "If the strength and tension release curves of the springs are not in harmony with the friction load, weight, and momentum of the moving parts, then the lock will tend to jump out of your hand as it goes off. A properly tuned and balanced lock will just sit there." That experiment may be worth a try both with and without the frizzen spring. Jim chambers went on to describe his six day class he teaches in Bowling Green KY. I guess he has some nifty high speed video of flintlocks going off that show some good and some not so good locks
Temper and hardness of the frizzen play a role in how much resistance there is to the flint also.

Birddog6'
I have seen reference to high speed video of locks with rollers and I distinctly remember their findings were that the lock with roller was actually slower than identical lock without the roller. But again it was milliseconds and of no real consequence to me. I'll note where I saw this as soon as I find it again, but I think it was an article in Muzzleblasts.

I'd love to be in Chambers class next June but it costs about $700 plus travel, and a week off work.

Thanks for all the input guys.
Too few people really understand flintlocks nowdays and I wish I were one of them.

Horse Dr,

 

Horse Doctor
Hmmmm, I hadn't thought about the force of the hammer stoping on the shoulder, Good point. One thing I forgot to state in my previous post, and this is interesting, with the spring, the mark on the frizzen starts 1/8" higher up on the frizzen but it's just a dig mark with a 1/8" gap, then a scrape the same as the scrape without the spring.
I have heard people talk about "balancing" the springs but have never had anyone able to explain how to determine when they are. I like Jims explanation. I've had locks that jumped when released and others that didn't. Didn't know why but, if they jump, how do you know which spring needs attention??

Cody

 

[musketman]

Maybe we're making this out to be more than what it is?

Cody Tetachuk is right, maybe the frizzen spring's "MAIN" job is to keep the frizzen closed, so your priming powder doesn't blow out...

Without a spring, the frizzen would be free to flop about from stop to stop, exposing the priming charge to the elements.

Just a thought.

 

[Randy]

Cody'
I discussed this on the phone with Mr. Rice one day. He said if the lock jumps forward then the frizzen spring is too weak, or the mainspring too strong. This is complicated by the fact that when you change flints each flint is slightly different weight and shape. I guess the flint is supposed to hit the closed frizzen roughy 2/3 of the way up from the bottom and the frizzen should snap open just as the flint reaches the bottom of the frizzen face. And the frizzen should not bounce or make a washboard like scrape. The scrape should be smooth and even all the way down. To make this happen you have to sometimes move the flint around in the jaws and cycle the lock slowly by hand to see if it works. On some locks you can't get it all to happen at once like that. Then if you knap the flint to sharpen the edge it all changes again. I have a siler lock that if you adjust the flint so the frizzen snaps open at the appropriate time, then the frizzen touches the flint at half cock and the pan won't close. Another lock has the flint 1/2" away at half cock. The only way I could see to change that is to weld the hole in the cock and reposition it.

Honestly, I'm just happy if the thing goes off when I pull the trigger. But sometimes they don't and that's when I start to ask questions. The most educational thing I've done is buy a set of rough cast lock parts from The Riffle Shoppe. You have to figgure out where to drill all the holes for mounting the tumbler, springs and sear, etc. Then you have to harden and temper the parts to get it all to work. You can't help but learn a few things doing this. More of a challenge than assembling a siler lock kit.

Musketman is right, we shouldn't make more of this than there really is, but there has to be a reason why locks made 200 years ago still work well, and many times outperform those made today.
In other words, If my new lock is "broke" I want to fix it!

Horse Dr.

 

[squirejohn]

My wife has a rifle with a Siler lock and roller frizzen. Several months ago I replaced the main spring (old one broke due to flaw in casting). The new mainspring is much much stiffer than the old one. In fact, it is so stiff that it is somewhat uncomfortable to cock the lock. When I tried the "palm test" the lock must have jumped six inches forward out of my hand. My question is this: Is weakening the mainspring a relatively simple sraight forward process (e.g. gind the outside of both sides of the "V" on a bias), or is it best left to someone that tunes locks such as Appalachian Lock Assembly?

 

[Birddog6]

I would send the lock to William Young, Wahkon Bay Outfitters in MN. He has repaired several for me & is very reasonable.

Also he does all the specialty barrel & breech work for TOW so he knows what he is doing & is a good guy to know if you need some other type of work done. Real nice guy to chat with also. His email is [email protected]