Hawken Research

[Bill Hall]

No gun to identify here. I'm doing some research on Hawken rifles, and this is the research section, so....

I'm looking for the best book to help with style, dimensions, measurements, etc. Something I can refer to during a Hawken build. Just a book with many clear photos would sure help. Not interested in history so much at this point, good physical examples to follow is my goal here. Bank account is low, so only looking for one book at this time.

Ok all you Hawken experts, if you were building a Hawken, what book would you refer to? Thanks in advance. Bill

 

[Keb]

H. House made a video of building a Hawken. It has some pretty cool info about them guns before he starts hammering out a gun.
America Pioneer Video, "Building A Hawken Rifle with Hershel House"

 

[Herb]

Get James D. Gordon's book "Great Gunmakers for the Early West", Volume III, Western U.S. He published this three volume set, you have to get it from him. There is no ISBN number, so forget Amazon. Cost is $295 shipped. But you should be able to get it from an Interlibrary Loan, you only need Volume III. Ask your librarian, no cost. Anyone else who would like to see these books could ask their library to buy the set. I own the set. So does our library when a buckskinner asked them to buy the set. Phone Jim Gordon at (505) 982-9667. Jim has his private museum at Glorieta, just out of Sante Fe. He has on display about two dozen original Hawkens and that many Lemans plus a few hundred other longrifles. You can pick the rifles up and handle them, photograph them, measure them, etc. Mariano Modena's rifle is there, plus Tobin's. Kit Carson's Hawken is in a Masonic (?) lodge in Sante Fe, Gordon can tell you about it. Gordon's book has color photos of about 30 Hawkens, full length 12 1/2" long, the cheek side of the stock, comb line, toe line, locks, etc. Nothing else like it.

 

[Bill Hall]

Keb, I actually own the Hershal House Hawken video on vhs. I did learn alot from it, but it lacks a bunch of needed detailed info, in my opinion, like measurements and such pertaining to Hawken architecture. I have a feeling it was all there in the beginning, but was edited out due to the limited time on the old video tapes. He starts out very detailed, but as the video goes on, each operation becomes a general quick visual display, like it was hacked up to meet time limits. Not a bad video for all around gun building tips though.

I have studied the rifles shown in the video. It was a trick to get the tape to stop just right without being blurry (remember video tapes :rotf:? ). Just looking for a better resource now.

Herb, you read my mind. I was thinking about contacting you in the near future to get that guys name and phone #, so I could maybe do a little research at his museum. I remember some photos you posted, but I was thinking there was only one Hawken, not the many you mentioned (SCORE!) Definitely a trip to make in the near future, like 90 minutes away from me.

And thanks for the info on the book. Can barely afford bologna right now, so I'll try my local library to see if they can get it. I already know all the books they have at hand, and that one is not there.

Thanks guys. If anyone else has more suggestions, I'm open to all ideas. :thumbsup: Bill

 

[Herb]

Bill, you should ask them to BUY Gordon's set of books. But on an Inter Library Loan, they go out to the libraries all over the country with a fax asking for the loan of the book you want. A library having the book then ships it to your library on a two week loan, at no cost to you. But don't ask for the full 3-volume set, it weighs about 12.5 pounds! Here are some of Gordon's Hawkens. Phone him to arrange a time for him to meet at his museum.

 

[Bill Hall]

Whew, I need a cigarrette. :grin: Bill

 

[50cal.cliff]

Herb, you got anymore of those close ups. I have learned enough over the years to know the devil is in the details on original Hawkens! :hmm: I love being able to sit and study photos like that. If you look long enough you are going to spot something you missed at first glance!

 

[Herb]

Here are a few more Hawken photos from Jim Gordon's museum.

 

[Herb]

The middle rifle is a Hawken in the Museum of the Fur Trade at Chadron, Nebraska.

 

[Bill Hall]

Wow, lots of variations in stlye. Those pics illustrate that there really isn't one exact style, like I was taught back in the 70's. I think most people have equated late S. Hawkens as the gold standard of Hawken architecture. I remember back in my rendezvous days, people would argue over little details on Hawken repros, saying things like, "The comb on that rifle is just a little too high for a Hawken", or "That's not exactly right because your rifle's lock is too rounded". :blah:

Hey Herb, I need to ask a question before I get a chance to see those for myself. What do you know about that flintlock? I was under the understanding that no known Hawken flintlocks exist now. I have heard of one surviving example, but it was converted to percussion. Is that flintlock the real deal? Bill

 

[50cal.cliff]

Thanks, Herb. :thumbsup:

 

[Herb]

If you mean the one on Jim Gordon's rack, I don't know anything about it. It is a real Hawken or it wouldn't be there. Should have taken a close up photo of the lable, which calls it a W. Hawken rifle. When you get there, perhaps you can do that, or at least copy down the label info. I wonder which one (if any) of Gordon's two dozen original Hawkens the experts would admit was a Hawken? Then all the authentic copies should look like that one! How would they explain all the other ones, but I guess once you know exactly what a Hawken looks like, nothing else matters.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Wow, lots of variations in stlye.

They were a custom shop. Same will/may be said of today's builders sometime in the future.
Plus, there were three main eras in the history of the Hawken Shop.

 

[Herb]

I found my label photos. The top label is for the flintlock, which is a W. Hawken, made in Maryland. He later moved to Denver and there is a photo in Gordon's book of a nice halfstock caplock he built there and stamped W.S.Hawken Denver.C.T. (the C is backwards).

Fullstock labels.

The Mariano Medina forestock.

 

[tiger955]

I'm sure someone will correct me if I am wrong. My memory is a little fuzzy, but I am pretty sure I saw a flintlock Hawken in the collection in the museum in Cody a couple years ago. And as far as style you're right about many variations.

 

[DEWB]

Great pics. Thanks for posting them Herb. I've been thinking about building a fullstock in a flint from a Stith kit. Iv'e heard that they havn't ever found one in a flint but they think there may be some that were converted. I think there was a good possibility they made some even though they may not have resembled what we think of as being a Hawken mountain rifle. I think that the mountain rifle developed over time from the needs of its users. Dew

 

[ryzman]

man that pistol gripped hawken is very cool.