Heavies In The Great Plains Hunter

[nkbj]

A question for shooters of the Great Plains Hunter rifles. What are the heaviest bullets that you have gotten to stabilize in the GPH rifles? I've long suspected the 50 GPH could be an excellent long range target rifle and would appreciate hearing the experience of any who have tried it out.
What mold designs have you tried?
Do you use card wads? Wax wads? What kind of lube?
Thanks.

 

[Walks with fire]

I have a 50 caliber 1/28 twist rifle that I shoot Great Plains bullets of 385 grains out of. Outstanding long range accuracy and power for sure and I am sure it would shoot longer heavier stuff just fine. I went down the conical trail for a while just to see what was down there but I slowly worked my way back to roundballs. Experiment if you wish but you will come back.

Google up Long Range Muzzleloading forum and you will find a great group of folks that are into what you are wanting to know about. We don't talk about conicals a great deal here and it's not a topic most will talk about much. There is quite a bit of tips that can help you with conical shooting that don't apply to roundball shooting but for the most part you won't find it here. Good luck to you.

 

[paulab]

goodcheer....It kind of depends on what you mean by "long range". Some folks think anything past 100 yds. is long range. If you are a cowboy action shooter, 200 yards is long range. N.R.A. Mid-range matches are between 200-600 yards and Long range matches are 800-1000 yds. Our English friends shoot out to 1200 yds. Black powder ctg. and muzzleloading rifles in .45 cal. should have around 1:18 twist to stabilize 500+ grain bullets. A .50 cal. rifle shooting 600+ grain bullets requires something around 1:22 to 1:26 twist. Don't forget that even if you have a rifle and load capable of real long range accuracy, you will need a quality set of sights that will allow you to accurately and reliably hit something waaaay out there. Check out the specs on the Pedersoli Gibbs rifle. It is probably the most commonly used long range m/l out there. Hope this helps. cheers paul

 

[longcruise]

What are the heaviest bullets that you have gotten to stabilize in the GPH rifles? I've long suspected the 50 GPH could be an excellent long range target rifle and would appreciate hearing the experience of any who have tried it out.

Should be about a 1:32 twist in your GPH and it should stabilize a bullet up to about 1.1 inch long. It will be pretty heavy though. With that crescent butt plate and the weight of the rifle it's going to be harsh on the shoulder! :shocked2: It will also burn out nipples pretty fast.

Most OTC molds and bullets will not be that long.

Just my opinion, but the GPH is not a very good design for long range shooting with heavy projectiles.

 

[nkbj]

Nobody has a GPH?
475 or 50 are currently under consideration to fill the gap between 40 and 54. Feedback on the GPH would be appreciated if anyone has figured one out.

 

[paulvallandigham]

WADR, did you not see the word" TRADITIONAL " in describing this forum? :surrender:

The Gun you ask about is a bullet gun. Yeah, some members have them, and shoot them. They like them as far as I have read hear. But, they don't often write about them here on THIS forum.

There is not very much traditional about shooting most " bullet " guns. ( The Exceptions are Minie Balls, Whitworth Hexagonal bullet rifles, and some of the hollow based early bullets that followed the Minie ball concept. Its not until AFTER 1865 that you begin to find flat based bullet designs being employed in civilian arms to any real extent. The .50-70 cartridge, adopted in 1866, used a 550 grain, flat based lead bullet in front of 70 grains of black powder. Later, a 450-465 grain bullet was adopted for use in "carbines". Those guns were made with 1:22" ROT rifling.

The GPH comes with a ROT specifically designed to shoot bullets in Sabots, with shallow rifling. Its a fine gun for that purpose. But we don't shoot copper jacketed pistol bullets in plastic sabots in the guns we write about on this forum. Those projectiles are clearly 20th century inventions.

So, please give the few members who do own, shoot and like the Lyman GPH some time to respond to your request. They will do so, but it may take the rest of this week, and next to get a response. This is hunting season in several parts of the country, and lots of these members are a long ways apart from their computers. :thumbsup:

 

[nkbj]

What does WADR mean?

 

[longcruise]

What does WADR mean?

It's what ya drink when ya get thirsty!

There's no rocket science in figuring out what your GPH will shoot as far as stabilizing goes. The 1:32 will stabilize the lengths I described above. A max length conical for your GPH is going to weigh in at about 550 grains. I shoot that weight in a 45-70 over 70 grains of 3f in a 10.4 pound rifle and it is downright punishing. :shocked2:

So, when one reduces the weight to say 400 or 450, a .50 caliber bullet is a bit stubby and has a poor BC. Even the 550 grain slug will not be that great in the BC dept. That and the other issues I mentioned is why I think the GPH would not make a very good long range muzzle loader.

While I have no experience with a GPH, I have been shooting GPRs for 26 years and am very familiar with the shooting charachteristics (sp ) of the GP stock design and the weight of these guns.

There is a reason that most long range muzzle loaders are built in .451 and .45 calibers. Pedersoli now has one available in .40 caliber but the jury is still out on it.

So, If you are thinking of acquiring a GPH for long range bullet shooting, I'd say consider something of a proven design such as the Pedersoli Gibbs. If you already have a GPH, then you might consider starting the learning curve by shooting some of the lighter hunting style slugs in the 325 to 450 grain weight.

 

[Idaho Ron]

I was told that talking about traditional styled rifles like the GPH and the TC Renegades, and conicals is fine on this forum.
Ron

 

[Zonie]

Basically, it is as long as it is about solid lead bullets and does not include discussions of those plastic things some folks wrap around modern bullets.

I suggest that rather than getting into the issue of what is OK to talk about, we give the original poster some good answers.

This basically means that if folks have not shot elongated lead slugs perhaps they should just kick up their feet and sit back and read.

 

[nkbj]

Hi Marmotslayer.
Don't have a GPH, but asking about them. Have GPR's in flint and percussion but no GPH.

The standard formulas available for figuring what a twist will stabilize are really guide lines and that thought made me want to inquire as to what GPH owners may have discovered. Hence the inquiry as to molds they may have used. As the Army wrote about in the mid 1800's, the form of the bullet including the grooves and a cup on the hind end make big differences in stabilization.

So, thinking about a fifty Sharps as an example, one turn in three feet is not unusual. Maybe that a GPH with 1:32 might work out with less powder. The GRP has a workable set of triggers. Twin wedges. Plenty of weight. And, depending on how you load it, the shallow grooves might be a plus with less distortion from obduration.
All in all, it might be a very nice package.

 

[torn moc]

if you like to play with numbers here is a good discussion about twist rate and it includes the GREENHILL FORMULA. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rifling#_Twist_rate

 

[paulvallandigham]

WADR = " With All Due Respect "....

 

[BrownBear]

One of my hunting pards has a GPH 54 barrel as well as the RB 54 barrel. The GPH shoots the Hornady Great Plains and Lyman Plains bullets like a house afire, and the Lee Reals (320 and 380, if I recall correctly) aren't far behind. He doesn't have anything heavier than the Lyman GP, which tops 400, but I don't remember the weight. He's using 80 grains of 3f behind all of them, along with a lubed felt over-powder wad. Those are moderate loads that come back pretty good, but not unbearably. I haven't seen him shoot them at 100, but at 50 the Lyman is gutting clover leafs.

 

[bingo1952]

Basically, it is as long as it is about solid lead bullets and does not include discussions of those plastic things some folks wrap around modern bullets.

I suggest that rather than getting into the issue of what is OK to talk about, we give the original poster some good answers.

This basically means that if folks have not shot elongated lead slugs perhaps they should just kick up their feet and sit back and read.

I agree completely. :v

 

[bingo1952]

Good link. :thumbsup:

 

[longcruise]

So, thinking about a fifty Sharps as an example, one turn in three feet is not unusual. Maybe that a GPH with 1:32 might work out with less powder. The GRP has a workable set of triggers. Twin wedges. Plenty of weight. And, depending on how you load it, the shallow grooves might be a plus with less distortion from obduration.
All in all, it might be a very nice package.

I think if you measure those .50 sharps bullets you will find they are pretty much in the length range that I suggested.

I can give you the sum of first hand experience shooting those same bullets in a .50 ml. The rifle was a TC Hawken .50 with 1:48 twist. The bullet was the .50-70 govt 450 grain .515 bullet sized down (to .501 or .504 can't remember which. Lee has a mold for this. Here is a pic:

These shot great in my TC. More accurate than any other I had ever tried which included Maxi Ball, R-E-A-L and Lee modern minie. I never exceeded 80 grains of ffg Goex. The recoil was horrendous.

Lee has the 500 grain .50-70 bullet too. It looks like this:

It's my guess that if the 1:48 would stabilize the 450 grainer, then the 1:32 in the GPH would stabilize the 500.

The Lee molds are economical and they also offer a .501 push through sizer so these could be experimented with on the cheap. You could slug your bore and have Lee make you a matching custom push through sizer as well.

I think if you wanted something bigger than a 500 you would have to get it custom made. Lee is, once again, a source. They have some minimum pricing that puts them in the same ball park as a custom mold from other makers, but, while Lee is high on the first mold, the subsequent copies are normal price. You could order 10 or so and sell them to recoup your investment.

BTW, I have a spreadsheet that calcs the Greenhill formula and shows results for constants ranging from 120 up to 230. It puts out twist needed for any given caliber/length or max length for any caliber/twist.

Greenhill is never the final word on twist, but it gives some food for thought. Many loooooong range bpc and ml shooters are usisng the 120 constant.

If you want a copy, PM me and I'll email it to you.

 

[Idaho Ron]

I like the Lee 500 S&W bullet out of a Lee mould, C-501-440-RF. This mould will throw a 460 gr bullet with pure lead when I use a laddle. I paper patch this bullet, and they shoot fantastic.
I am getting sub 2" groups at 100 yards. Ron

 

[douglas duncan]

Idaho Ron, maybe you can help me out, I have the GPH in .54 cal. I am trying to figure out which lee molds I can use for the rifle. I have the R.E.A.L. mold already but would like something a little bigger in weight. plus I do not care for the "REAL" bullet all that much kinda hard to lube it. I have a .50 cal with a 1-28 twist that will shoot the no-excuses 460 grn pretty good. so I was looking for something similar to the no-excuses 460 grn.

 

[nkbj]

Yo Marmotslayer.
Yeah man! I tried that 450gr Lee in a fast twist CVA that I got off a scratch and dent table for next to nothing. The bore is .500 so I had a .499 sizer made. I'm not brave enough to put much of a charge behind it but it still passed right through the 8" tallow tree the target was tacked to. It's a short handy rough and ready little thing so it's the hog/dog/skunk gun standing in the corner.