Help me choose a kit?

[IanH]

Now that you ordered the Kibler, I think it was the better choice. Not only will you like it, but it will show you how a longrifle is SUPPOSED to be put together so when you build your preferred style from a lesser kit you will be a lot better prepared to do so. That is what I did except my second gun was built from a board, barrel, and lock and I made most of the other parts too. My third was built from a tree and a barrel blank. I'm still very glad I started with a Kibler SMR and the book Recreating the American Longrifle.

 

[jtkerk]

That was the better choice.

The Kibler is a better rifle in every important way. I currently own three SMR's, one each Colonial and Woods Runner. I have assembled eight Kiblers.

I have used parts sets from half a dozen suppliers. I am done with pantograph stocks and sloppy cast part locks. They are an exercise in frustration on the road to a second quality rifle. For instance, I spent about 6-hours installing a patch box and butplate on a Baker today. Yesterday the trigger guard took most of the day. Every step seems to fight me. That is how traditional parts set are.

Comparison? Just take the locks. Kibler's locks are Swiss watch quality CNC made perfection. The correct steels are used for all parts. All heat treatment is done right. Everyone else uses cast parts. The foundry uses whatever they have and do not care about quality. Some are pretty good, like Chambers. Many of the others we commonly use are junk.

Kibler's kits are extremely well designed and everything fits together right. Not BS or workarounds.

The OP did good and will have a great rifle.

AMEN TO THAT

 

[James Kibler]

If you want to HAVE a rifle, go with Kibler. If you want to BUILD a rifle, go with Track of the Wolf or similar kit. With Kibler you will get a great rifle that is very easy to assemble. With Track of the Wolf you will learn the skills to not need kits anymore. Track of the Wolf kit will take much more time to build and require more tools.

Bill,

The problem is that no matter how hard you work, you’ll not end up with as good of a final product if you go with the other options mentioned. Not an opinion just a fact.

 

[billraby]

Bill,

The problem is that no matter how hard you work, you’ll not end up with as good of a final product if you go with the other options mentioned. Not an opinion just a fact.

I agree. There is no question that the Kibler kits are the best product out there. But for me, the final product is not the goal. I am more interested in the experience of building than the final product.

 

[James Kibler]

I agree. There is no question that the Kibler kits are the best product out there. But for me, the final product is not the goal. I am more interested in the experience of building than the final product.

That's interesting. I've always been aware that there are those more process versus product-orientated, but I sometimes lose track of this perspective. I'm motivated, but always just want to find the easiest / quickest way to get a high-level result.

There have been times in my life where I've pounded away at things and only gotten them done with sheer effort and patience, but that's just because I really didn't have many alternatives.

The concept of choosing to do something a harder way is so foreign to me, especially where I'm at in life.

 

[billraby]

That's interesting. I've always been aware that there are those more process versus product-orientated, but I sometimes lose track of this perspective. I'm motivated, but always just want to find the easiest / quickest way to get a high-level result.

There have been times in my life where I've pounded away at things and only gotten them done with sheer effort and patience, but that's just because I really didn't have many alternatives.

The concept of choosing to do something a harder way is so foreign to me, especially where I'm at in life.

I think we are looking at this from entirely different points of view. Look at it this way. Friend of mine wanted to see a Broadway play. She flew to New York City, spent the weekend there and went to the play. Spent a few thousand dollars on it and had a great time. She is glad that she did it and probably will again. I would rather spend the weekend in jail than in New York City, but whatever. I could build a gun from a blank for less money than she spent on that trip. It would be months spent in the workshop and loving every minute of it.

I build guns because I enjoy building guns. Not because I want another gun. I see money spent on gun parts and tools as part of the entertainment budget. I value the time spent building a gun more than the finished gun.

 

[user 34300]

I am at a point where I get frustrated by parts sets. I stopped work one one I've had for a while because I was tired and frustrated. I am not OK with making a rifle that has flaws.

Here is an example of what I am trying to get across. I just now finished adding the lock bolts on that rifle. The side plate inlet was located fairly precisely. The lock inlet was also very precisely located. I only had to do minimal clean up to the parts and wood to get a good gap free fit. I had no latitude on either.

When it came time to locate the lock bolts things got interesting. On the mill, I leveled up on the side plate flat plain. That agreed with the butplate screws. It did not agree precisely with the lock plate molding. Pick your poison. I leveled up the side plate face in both axis. The center of the lock bolt was precisely located in the plate. A center was started. A hole then plunged through to the lock plate with a quality bit. Neither hole in the lock plate was well located. They both landed low, usable but low in the lock. The top bolt was to far back in the lock bolster. Sure I could have drilled between centers but the bolt would have been cockeyed on that lock plate. Most every step is a compromise of lesser evils on this parts set.

This the kind of nonsense that makes me recommend a Kibler kit to anyone who asks. For a beginner it save making a messed up rifle. Some beginners just give up on the hobby. I got a large quantity of new parts from such a person. By contrast, process of assembling a Kibler is fun and easy.

I am at at the point where I choose Kibler or a plank from now on. A plank is slow but precise. I do all the important steps on a milling machine. IF the blank is square it is easy to make parts line up correctly the first time. With an ordinary precarve you have a bunch of conflicting inconsistencies and no great way to select a reference plane. Add in some shrinkage and warping and it gets really hard.

For the heck of it I may try a Chambers parts set. I hear they are excellent.

I'd like to see a quality parts set for a late golden age flintlock. Maybe an Armstrong? Chambers and Kibler offer earlier guns only.

Regarding being process or result oriented, I am both. Making slow steady progress toward the goal is fine with me. If take 150 hours to make a nice rifle from a plank that is OK. If I spend 150 hours fixing and working around problems that is not OK.

I have wondered if a CNC mill be used to to program Gcode using a touch stylus. That seems like it would make it possible to make nice copies of historical guns.

 

[Capnball]

I am at a point where I get frustrated by parts sets. I stopped work one one I've had for a while because I was tired and frustrated. I am not OK with making a rifle that has flaws.

Here is an example of what I am trying to get across. I just now finished adding the lock bolts on that rifle. The side plate inlet was located fairly precisely. The lock inlet was also very precisely located. I only had to do minimal clean up to the parts and wood to get a good gap free fit. I had no latitude on either.

When it came time to locate the lock bolts things got interesting. On the mill, I leveled up on the side plate flat plain. That agreed with the butplate screws. It did not agree precisely with the lock plate molding. Pick your poison. I leveled up the side plate face in both axis. The center of the lock bolt was precisely located in the plate. A center was started. A hole then plunged through to the lock plate with a quality bit. Neither hole in the lock plate was well located. They both landed low, usable but low in the lock. The top bolt was to far back in the lock bolster. Sure I could have drilled between centers but the bolt would have been cockeyed on that lock plate. Most every step is a compromise of lesser evils on this parts set.

This the kind of nonsense that makes me recommend a Kibler kit to anyone who asks. For a beginner it save making a messed up rifle. Some beginners just give up on the hobby. I got a large quantity of new parts from such a person. By contrast, process of assembling a Kibler is fun and easy.

I am at at the point where I choose Kibler or a plank from now on. A plank is slow but precise. I do all the important steps on a milling machine. IF the blank is square it is easy to make parts line up correctly the first time. With an ordinary precarve you have a bunch of conflicting inconsistencies and no great way to select a reference plane. Add in some shrinkage and warping and it gets really hard.

For the heck of it I may try a Chambers parts set. I hear they are excellent.

I'd like to see a quality parts set for a late golden age flintlock. Maybe an Armstrong? Chambers and Kibler offer earlier guns only.

Regarding being process or result oriented, I am both. Making slow steady progress toward the goal is fine with me. If take 150 hours to make a nice rifle from a plank that is OK. If I spend 150 hours fixing and working around problems that is not OK.

I have wondered if a CNC mill be used to to program Gcode using a touch stylus. That seems like it would make it possible to make nice copies of historical guns.

That "walking away" part is absolutely part of a build experience. I find when I reach the point that anything I do will not help, I stop. Sometimes it's just a few minutes to a couple hrs. Sometimes it's much longer . Then I'll be driving along or working on something else and the solution hits me like a lightening strike! It almost always clears itself up like that......almost, lol

 

[longcruise]

That "walking away" part is absolutely part of a build experience. I find when I reach the point that anything I do will not help, I stop. Sometimes it's just a few minutes to a couple hrs. Sometimes it's much longer . Then I'll be driving along or working on something else and the solution hits me like a lightening strike! It almost always clears itself up like that......almost, lol

Agree. Just had that very experience an hour. Already a solution has popped into mind.

 

[mc1960]

Really wanting to pull the trigger on the SMR .40 kit, hope some extra funds come soon.

 

[LonestarShootR]

Being a left handed shooter I would prefer a LH flintlock. The choices seem few for kits. Jim Chambers has a LH model but I am confused at how the pricing is done. Kibler seems popular but ty hey choose not to make a leftie. Are there more options on kits that I am unaware of? Could just do a scratch build?

 

[longcruise]

Scratch is an option. First thing to research is available lefty locks to be sure you can match one to your desired style.

 

[54ball]

I am at a point where I get frustrated by parts sets. I stopped work one one I've had for a while because I was tired and frustrated. I am not OK with making a rifle that has flaws.

Here is an example of what I am trying to get across. I just now finished adding the lock bolts on that rifle. The side plate inlet was located fairly precisely. The lock inlet was also very precisely located. I only had to do minimal clean up to the parts and wood to get a good gap free fit. I had no latitude on either.

When it came time to locate the lock bolts things got interesting. On the mill, I leveled up on the side plate flat plain. That agreed with the butplate screws. It did not agree precisely with the lock plate molding. Pick your poison. I leveled up the side plate face in both axis. The center of the lock bolt was precisely located in the plate. A center was started. A hole then plunged through to the lock plate with a quality bit. Neither hole in the lock plate was well located. They both landed low, usable but low in the lock. The top bolt was to far back in the lock bolster. Sure I could have drilled between centers but the bolt would have been cockeyed on that lock plate. Most every step is a compromise of lesser evils on this parts set.

This the kind of nonsense that makes me recommend a Kibler kit to anyone who asks. For a beginner it save making a messed up rifle. Some beginners just give up on the hobby. I got a large quantity of new parts from such a person. By contrast, process of assembling a Kibler is fun and easy.

I am at at the point where I choose Kibler or a plank from now on. A plank is slow but precise. I do all the important steps on a milling machine. IF the blank is square it is easy to make parts line up correctly the first time. With an ordinary precarve you have a bunch of conflicting inconsistencies and no great way to select a reference plane. Add in some shrinkage and warping and it gets really hard.

For the heck of it I may try a Chambers parts set. I hear they are excellent.

I'd like to see a quality parts set for a late golden age flintlock. Maybe an Armstrong? Chambers and Kibler offer earlier guns only.

Regarding being process or result oriented, I am both. Making slow steady progress toward the goal is fine with me. If take 150 hours to make a nice rifle from a plank that is OK. If I spend 150 hours fixing and working around problems that is not OK.

I have wondered if a CNC mill be used to to program Gcode using a touch stylus. That seems like it would make it possible to make nice copies of historical guns.

I hope you will find this interesting.
This is not to do the internet one-up-manship or working class hero baloney or any condescending motivation like that.
Rather my following comments are about build philosophy and methodology. I hope you find it interesting.

A lot of what you mention sounds foreign to me.
Axis’s and planes, that stuff does not matter to me but then again it does, I guess.

What looks good is good. That’s as far as I go.
Maybe I build or am presently building flaws into the gun.

It’s interesting to me that you mention the buttplate screws agreeing with the side plate plain.

I don’t understand. This is foreign to me.

Maybe we are closer in philosophy than it appears.

I have actually thought about this often.

Building a 18th Century gun is a lot like herding cats.
The only thing that’s reasonably square is the bore. Sometimes, even that’s not square on a barrel with run out but you don’t see that like you used to.

On swamped barrel.....it’s not square. It has the taper and flare.
The stock.....
A blank, it’s not square.
Castings.....those jokers are not square, especially trigger guards.

Look plate and side plate......
On a rifle I’m working on now the sidle plate side is different that the lock plate side.
On the lock side, the tail of the lock kicks out.....
On the side plate side the plain matches the bore rather than the side flat. This makes it thinner.
It’s really asymmetrical.

I have often thought that a machinist minded or engineer minded person would really struggle with an 18th Century gun. Maybe it’s just how I do it.

There’s nothing on it that’s truly precise or square.

To me it’s like herding cats. As long as they head in a general direction.....
That’s OK.

I don’t have a milling machine. I primarily use a rasp and straight edge.
I do use a depth gauge a lot.

Maybe it’s just my inexperience.

I’m more of a seat of the pants type.....
What looks good is good.

I’m not talking about hokey stuff or poor workmanship.
Maybe I’m looking at this from more of an art aspect than a precision aspect?

 

[Eric Krewson]

I have always been a crafty guy, first it was duck decoys, then bows and finally flintlock rifles.

I saw a Bob Hope interview where he was asked why he was still working when he had plenty of money, he said he was in it for the work not the money. I can relate to that.

I built a Kibler SMR, the kit was pretty amazing but I didn't have the same attachment to the rifle as one of my scratch builds. Like was mentioned above; I like the work, I have always found that accomplishing a difficult task with a good end result to be very satisfying.

I only build for myself so the time invested doesn't matter.

When people see one of my rifles and ask "did you build that rifle"? I can say "yes I did" then I explain that the lock and barrel were bought in useable condition, the rest was rough castings and a block of wood.

With the Kibler I have to tell them that it was a very advanced kit that I simply put together and one I highly recommend for someone with limited skills and tools who wants one of the best rifles out there.

 

[Capnball]

I have always been a crafty guy, first it was duck decoys, then bows and finally flintlock rifles.

I saw a Bob Hope interview where he was asked why he was still working when he had plenty of money, he said he was in it for the work not the money. I can relate to that.

I built a Kibler SMR, the kit was pretty amazing but I didn't have the same attachment to the rifle as one of my scratch builds. Like was mentioned above; I like the work, I have always found that accomplishing a difficult task with a good end result to be very satisfying.

I only build for myself so the time invested doesn't matter.

When people see one of my rifles and ask "did you build that rifle"? I can say "yes I did" then I explain that the lock and barrel were bought in useable condition, the rest was rough castings and a block of wood.

With the Kibler I have to tell them that it was a very advanced kit that I simply put together and one I highly recommend for someone with limited skills and tools who wants one of the best rifles out there.

Kiblers always attract attention at the range. To people who know kiblers the precision is a given but the finishing is where the owner of the piece can shine. Sure you could slap it together and go shooting but there are just sooo many options to make it your own. I've built 100 kiblers in my head, all different, all my ideas! I've done enough repairs to old guns to say, "I could build a gun from scratch" but my problem is no matter how well I've done a repair or restoration, I'll never really be 100% happy with it. I've been close, like 98% LOL. I think when the money and time are right, I'll get a kibler shoot for 100%.

 

[CuNosecap]

I think we have identified two different types of people on this good earth, maybe right brain left brain, who knows?

But as an example of my preference to build rifles from scratch or sets (as opposed to the Kibler kit), I built Revell models as a kid. Didn't matter if it was a race car, airplane, didn't matter. I would modify the kit to make it better, change paint schemes etc. Once completed, the model went to a shelf to collect dust, rarely touched again.

This is not dissimilar from my rifles. I do shoot them and love to o out to the range. But for me it is the tinkering, and the very problem solving the harder kits demand. That is why I build.

If I only was to build one or two rifles, say one small bore, one big bore or a smoothie, maybe I would have chosen a Kibler as they are without question fine quality. I just happen to love the challenge of tinkering.

Rick

 

[Snooterpup]

You

Well guys,

Kibler is the way I went. I put in an order for an SMR in .40 this morning. With all the good Ive heard about them I dont think I can go wrong with one!

Thanks for your input everyone!

Chris

Good choice, you will not regret your decision. My Kibler Colonial lock throws sparks like the 4th of July.
Best of luck and show photos!

 

[Snooterpup]

Being a left handed shooter I would prefer a LH flintlock. The choices seem few for kits. Jim Chambers has a LH model but I am confused at how the pricing is done. Kibler seems popular but ty hey choose not to make a leftie. Are there more options on kits that I am unaware of? Could just do a scratch build?

I was born right handed, write, carve, do intricate repair work, all right handed. Problem is in the right eye. Had amblyopia and the center sharpness in that eye is not good at all. Learned to shoot left handed and it is the “natural” way I pick up and shoulder any long gun.
I shoot my Kibler Colonial .54 left handed all the time and think nothing of it. (I do always wear eye protection)
I know many left dominant folks that just cannot adapt to any right hand flint gun.
Just remember, all side lock doubles will have someone experiencing this situation. It can be overcome but takes some dedication.
A Chambers left kit may be your best choice, whatever you choose, best of luck!
Snoot

 

[oldwood]

I have always had a liking for Dickert / Dreppert late Lancaster longrifles. ( These builders were related , as Dreppert married Dickert's daughter.) We knew little about them , until an auctioneer was waving wildly to my friend Fred and I , as we passed the auction site in front of a barn. Auctioner yelled to Fred to stop and see him that evening , and that we did. Guy pulled out the butt half of a late lancaster longrifle . Paid the guy , and we left to go back to Freds for some research on the stock. Turns out the brass patch box was on the typical Dreppert Lancaster butt stock. Told Fred , since I paid for the part , I wanted pick of the first litter off his Don Allen stock carving duplicator. I liked the precarved stock fred did for me , I have no idea how many I built from the original. My choice.

 

[Johnny Tremain]

Locks:
As far as I care there are two. Chambers and L&R.
Both high quality, the difference is the Chambers has to return home to be repaired, or yo wait for parts. L&R you can get parts all over the place. My Chamber's lock was tuned by ole man R of L&R.

Barrels:
I like the longer the better. The more FPS speed you can develop, the longer it will shoot.
I have a 42 inch because Rice didnt make longer one in 45 cal and swamped.

My first rifles were square barreled. After I shot the swamped barrel, I can never go back.
Lighter and better center of gravity.