Help With ID Of Smoothbore

[Al Bateman 1]

Folks, need some of your knowledge please. A guy brought a smoothbore into my shop today wondering what it was. I own a vacuum cleaner store...right away I knew it wasn't a Panasonic or Sanyo :no: So I'm here for help.
The overall length is about 58", with the barrel being 42".
The bbl is octagon to round, with the octagon being 9 7/8"
The word LONDON is on the top flat.
The left flat has two proof(?) marks. The top mark is (I think) crossed broad arrows, with a crown at the top, a B on the left, a C on the right and a P on the bottom. The lower mark is again crossed arrows with a crown on top and a V on bottom.
The name T. BARNSLEY is on the bottom of the bbl.
This is a cap lock, very rusty but with some engraving on the lock,hammer and tang. Looks like a floral design, best I can tell. I will try to link pictures of it here.

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b390/alinhamlet1/MVC-006F.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b390/alinhamlet1/MVC-005F.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b390/alinhamlet1/MVC-003F.jpg

Any ideas? Thanks for the time.
Al

 

[Al Bateman 1]

Oops, left off one of the pictures

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b390/alinhamlet1/MVC-001F.jpg

Al

 

[Mike Brooks]

It's British Ca. 1810 give or take 10 years. It's a low end export piece with a beech stock and export style engraving. Used to be flint by the way.

 

[Al Bateman 1]

Mike, Thanks :thumbsup:
AL

 

[robinghewitt]

Hmmmm :hmm:

But if it used to be flint, it's unlikely to be Thomas Barnsley of Rowley Regis because he was active 1849-56 :thumbsup:

 

[Mike Brooks]

Hmmmm :hmm:

But if it used to be flint, it's unlikely to be Thomas Barnsley of Rowley Regis because he was active 1849-56 :thumbsup:

That could well be, but this lock was definately flint at one time. POKE HERE FOR PIC
It's really odd to have that name on the bottom flat of the barrel. Perhaps a barrel maker? :hmm:
Or, another possibility, This lock may have been converted to percussion before it was ever put on this gun. Using up old obsolete flint lock on a 50's made low end gun? :hmm:

 

[robinghewitt]

Or, another possibility, This lock may have been converted to percussion before it was ever put on this gun.

Need to look for a cut out in the wood where the flint cock would have come to rest on the top of the plate.

This long range gun detective work sure is hard, still fun though :thumbsup:

 

[benvenuto]

The word LONDON is on the top flat.
The left flat has two proof(?) marks. The top mark is (I think) crossed broad arrows, with a crown at the top, a B on the left, a C on the right and a P on the bottom. The lower mark is again crossed arrows with a crown on top and a V on bottom.
The name T. BARNSLEY is on the bottom of the bbl.

crossed sceptres under a crown is Birmingham proof

I would guess *symbol* BCP is the proof mark and *symbol* V is the "view" mark (a sort of final quality control, but in birminghams case notoriously low quality for the most part)

Barnsley is the barrel makers name, there might have been several generations in the same family doing the same trade and with similar names so it might go back further than 1850's. Typically, gun part makers children or grandchildren ended up as gunmakers in their own right.

LONDON on the top flat is probably pure advertising (london guns were usually higher quality, although a lot were made from B'ham parts anyway)

I'd agree this is an export gun, maybe made for africa or the east

 

[Al Bateman 1]

Need to look for a cut out in the wood where the flint cock would have come to rest on the top of the plate.

Squire Robin...The wood on this weapon is very badly damaged. When I took the barrel off, several pieces came off with it. Since I gave it back to the young man last night I can't try anymore pictures. I will say this..I'm now interested in getting a nice long barreled fowler (?) similar to this. When I threw it up to my shoulder..it just hung like it was made there . Darn, how am I going to explain this to my wife?
Al

 

[Wehrmacht]

Mike,
In a position of deference,I agree with your observations relative to the lock's former status and the wood of the stock.It's definately a diffuse porous hardwood,and I would say European beech probably and sycamore as a far out second.

On the subject of woods used, other than those that were traditionally used ie maple,walnut,cherry and ash,what other woods have you found in your experiences?

I've often wondered about black locust.Never heard of it being used,and yes,it would be off the scale of difficulty to work by hand,but if you had a stock out of the stuff it would wear out five barrels and locks :haha: Remember the old glass insulators seen on old telephone/telegraph poles? The wooden peg these were threaded down on were black locust-the most dimensionally stable wood we have.Will not change dimensions in hot or cold,wet or dry! I've thought about discretely sending a blank up to Fred Miller just to see what happens ::

 

[Okwaho]

Mike's right here.British guns made in England in the 18th and 19th century were made primarily from two woods,walnut and beech. There were some Besses made from beech and a great many export guns such as the Carolina guns made from beech which was cheaper and much more plentiful than walnut.I agree that this was a relatively inexpensive gun exported from England in the early to mid 19th century possibly as a late trade gun.Without good pictures of the butt architecture and mounts it's difficult to give a better answer.The lock is of the type commonly seen in that period but I'm puzzled by the seeming absence of a forward lock bolt for the lock.I'm not sure just when one screw locks began to be used in England.I do agree with Mike that the gun appears to have been within the late flint period but I'm not sure about the lock as to whether it was originally flint or if it is an old replacement.Either way the gun could be easily restored{assuming the forestock and butt are complete}to a suitable wall hanger.
Tom Patton :m2c:

 

[arilar]

On the subject of woods used, other than those that were traditionally used ie maple,walnut,cherry and ash,what other woods have you found in your experiences?

Here in Sweden: birch,birch and birch.
ARILAR :: :thumbsup: