Hey!...It works patches!

[omarick1948]

One thing that is hard for me to establish in historical records, is a clear use of cloth or leather patches for shooting RB by our forefathers. I'm talking about solid historic documentation and not what some book writer published or story. I know that will open a big can of worms here, but could also stir a robust conversation on the topic.

I recently attended a gathering of muzzle loading friends of mine and a conversation came up about using the many different types of patches and the availability of woven cloth material carried for RB patching in the remote area's of our country during the 18th and early 19th centuries.

This conversation reminded me of the time I saw a Buckskinner at a primitive shoot who ran out of cloth patches and instead of getting a few from anyother shooter, he just picked off a few leaves from a Mulberry tree and wrapped a RB around with the leaf, rammed it home at shot. I seen him hit the target and three others after that first shot, so why wouldn't one of our forefathers, not do the same?

My friends thought that I was pulling their legs, so I showed them that it does work. I loaded my full stock Jacob Hawken flinter 54 with 80 grains of FFg, followed by a .530 leaf wrapped ball. I shot at a charcoal brickett hung from a string at 25 yards (+/-) shot and powdered the charcoal on the shot. Loaded again and missed and then a third time and hit about like the first. To everyone's amazement, including mine. The accuracy about floored me. You might not get that good of accuracy on a longer shot, but I was very happy on the results.

I now feel, that our forefathers could of used a leaf or even grass wadding in a pinch or even pretty regularly. If you stop to think about it. How many shots would someone really need in a week or even a month on the frontier? Not as many as we might believe.

What's your thoughts?

 

[Jim C]

No tellin' what all the old timers were forced to make do with that actually worked just as well as the standard cloth patch, but is totally lost on us today because it was never recorded. Just like the guns themselves. They never made a big deal over their guns, talking about them and writing about them the way we do today, because to them a gun was merely a tool of survival, and that was it.

 

[coloradoclyde]

Inner bark from a poplar tree works too...

 

[Golfswithwolves]

They could have used a leaf, but is there historical documentation for that either?

 

[Artificer]

For rifles it is not a problem finding documentation, BUT I don't know of period documentation for a smoothbore.

Will dig out some documentation on the rifles tomorrow, if Spence doesn't beat me to it.

Gus

 

[GANGGREEN]

I can't really answer the original question because I've never delved into the history to that degree, but I'm curious about the leaf. Unless your leaves are a lot tougher than mine or your balls are a lot looser going down the barrel, I can't imagine how the leaf wouldn't just rip on the way down and rather get in the way, rather than taking on the rifling from the bore. I'm not challenging the OP, I'm sure you did what you say and saw what you saw, I just don't think it's something you'd want to do if you were really relying on your shot to be true.

 

[don hepler]

Somewhere along the way I remember seeing a very old rifle, and the contents of the patch box, showed some cloth patches and round balls. Now how old that would have been, I have no idea. But I'm guessing that other discoverys have been made.

 

[Brokennock]

This would also raise the question of how much "patch cloth" would one need to carry and where did it come from? Did longhunters and explorers and other frontiersmen stop by a tailor's shop will gathering their supplies and purchase scraps of linen, or if leaving from a point closer to the sea maybe buy scrap hemp canvas from a sail maker? Maybe one of the more mathematicaly gifted members can give us an idea of how much cloth was needed per X amount of lead? I'm sure with the other forthcoming documentation someone will provide us with an idea of how much lead was taken on a given or various expeditions.

We of course have Audubon's documentation of Boone using cloth patching, but that was post settlement.

 

[Artificer]

Edited to add: Sorry, meant to hit the reply button on Rick's post.

James Audubon, c1810, describing his host preparing to go raccoon hunting:

"”¦ He blows through his rifle to ascertain that it is clear, examines his flint, and thrusts a feather into the touch-hole. To a leathern bag swung at his side is attached a powder-horn; his sheath-knife is there also; below hangs a narrow strip of homespun linen. He takes from his bag a bullet, pulls with his teeth the wooden stopper from his powder-horn, lays the ball in one hand, and with the other pours the powder upon it until it is just overtopped. Raising the horn to his mouth, he again closes it with the stopper, and restores it to its place. He introduces the powder into the tube; springs the box of his gun, greases the "patch" over with some melted tallow, or damps it; then places it on the honey-combed muzzle of his piece. The bullet is placed on the patch over the bore, and pressed with the handle of the knife, which now trims the edge of the linen. The elastic hickory rod, held with both hands, smoothly pushes the ball to its bed; once, twice, thrice has it rebounded. The rifle leaps as it were into the hunters arms, the feather is drawn from the touch-hole, the powder fills the pan, which is closed. “Now I’m ready,” cries the woodsman”¦.
Journals, Vol. 2, (1972 reprint), page 492.

A GREAT place to look for period information on period guns, manufacture, usage, etc., etc, is in "An Essay on Shooting," by William Cleator but published by Tho. Cadell in 1789. For this inquiry, it is best to look in Chapter X of that book, “Of Rifle Barrels,”on page 123.

Page 131 is the page we are looking for:
“Besides the method of loading, by driving down the ball with an Iron Rammer, there are several others which we shall mention. In Germany they sometimes charge them in the following manner; a piece of thin leather or fustian is cut of a circular shape, and is so large as to cover a little more than one half the ball; this piece is then greased on one side, and being placed over the muzzle, the ball is laid upon it, and both thrust down together; by this means the leather or fustian enters in the rifles, and the bullet being firmly embraced by it, acquires the proper rotary motion in its passage through the barrel. If this method be equally effectual, it is certainly more easy and expeditious than the method already described. “


A handbook for riflemen: by William Duane, 1812
"The rifleman must be made acquainted with the nature of sights, and the aim of the rifle; how to load with loose ball, to force it dextrously into the barrel, so that it shall lie close upon the powder without bruising the grains; he must be taught how to use the plaister, which is a piece of greased flannel, fustian, or soft leather, to facilitate the passage of the ball into the barrel, and clean it."

I can't remember if I got these from Spence or LaBonte. My thanks again from whom they came.

Scloppetaria: by Capt. Henry Beaufroy, 1808:
"By the patch is understood the small piece of greased leather, &c. which is put round the ball before driving it down, to fill up the interstices of the grooves, which would, without this precaution, occasion too great a windage."

An early Portuguese book, Espingarda Perfeyta, The Perfect Gun, Cesar Fiosconi & Jordam Guserio, 1718:
"These were loaded by putting the bullet in a little piece of leather of a thin glove, folded only once, dipped in oil, and thus it was pushed down to the bottom in such a manner that the bullet may not lose its roundness:"

This last quote is interesting because it doesn't say whether or not it is a rifled gun. If it wasn't a rifled gun, this may be the only documentation I have seen of using a patch in a smoothbore.

I think I have more, but am not sure.

Gus

 

[GANGGREEN]

That Audubon piece is interesting. It demonstrates several things to me. First of all, woodsmen/hunters apparently did "measure" their loads, rather than simply pouring a random amount of powder from the horn into the bore. Secondly, I wonder how large the touch hole was or what the granulation of the powder was if he had to use a quill to prevent leakage while loading. Lastly, it does answer the original question about whether they used patches "back in the day" and what they were typically lubed with. Thanks for posting.

 

[Artificer]

I can't remember if there is something in the following:

The memoirs of Lieut. Henry Timberlake : (who accompanied the three Cherokee Indians to England in the year 1762) https://archive.org/details/memoirsoflieuthe00intimb

Gus

 

[Artificer]

That Audubon piece is interesting. It demonstrates several things to me. First of all, woodsmen/hunters apparently did "measure" their loads, rather than simply pouring a random amount of powder from the horn into the bore. Secondly, I wonder how large the touch hole was or what the granulation of the powder was if he had to use a quill to prevent leakage while loading. Lastly, it does answer the original question about whether they used patches "back in the day" and what they were typically lubed with. Thanks for posting.

Indeed, the Audubon quote is also interesting because it goes into such detail and there is no mention of a short starter. The hunter used the side of his knife to push the ball into the bore.

They used small feathers of small birds in the touch holes.

You are most welcome.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

BTW, I have to admit for a long time I doubted that they may have commonly used leather for patch material. However, LaBonte has mentioned he regularly uses Brain Tanned Buckskin and it works extremely well. Don't try it with commercial tanned buckskin, though, because it is not as soft. Some folks also have mentioned they use chamois for patch material.

Gus

 

[coloradoclyde]

a piece of thin leather or fustian is cut of a circular shape

Finally,....Documentation for precut round patches.....Circa 1789....I love it. :bow: :bow: :thumbsup: :hatsoff: :haha:

 

[Rifleman1776]

Good documentation. :applause:
And, I have seen pictures of high end cased firearms, both perc. and flint, that included a container with round patches. I'm sure balls were commonly patched. There were exceptions of balls cast to fit grooving and others simply hammered bare into the rifling. But, I believe, patching was the norm.

 

[Artificer]

Thank you, but the real thanks need to go to Spence and LaBonte, as I got all but the first two quotes from them, I believe.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

Somewhere I have 18th century documentation on using Spanish Moss in the Southern Colonies in smooth bore guns. However, I don't think it was used like a patch, but rather above and below the ball like we use shot cards and wads.

Gus

 

[omarick1948]

They could have used a leaf, but is there historical documentation for that either?

I didn't say that the old boys used it, but I saw a Buckskinner at a shoot use it and I tried it much later and it worked...that's all!

It a pinch or a fast moving bear or Indian charge, it could be faster loading than fumbling for a cloth or leather patch for loading.

 

[Artificer]

Rick,

During emergencies like those, they often or usually just dumped powder and bare ball in the bore with no patch. Unfortunately, the documentation I had for that was on my old computer and when it died, I lost all my files/sources.

I suppose they might also have used a wadded bunch of tow or maybe even a wadded bunch of Spanish Moss when nothing else was available for their rifle. However, I have no documentation to back either of those up.

Gus

 

[coloradoclyde]

Unfortunately, the documentation I had for that was on my old computer and when it died, I lost all my files/sources.

Did you remove the hard drive and try to recover the information....When mine died I removed the hard drive and was able to recover all my old files.