Historic Expetations of Flint Life

[Zonie]

In the book OLD SPANISH TRAIL- THE FAR WEST AND THE ROCKIES HISTORICAL SERIES 1820-1875, VOLUME I by LeRoy R. Hafen & Ann. W. Hafen, 1954, THE ARTHUR H. CLARK COMPANY, Glendale, California, U.S.A., the author on page 254 writes:

"The raids on California ranches became so serious that Stephen C. Folser, prefect of the district of Los Angeles appealed on September 29, 1849, to Bennett Riley, the new American military governor of California:

"As Prefect of said District of Los Angeles, I beg leave to state that the District is particularly exposed to the depredations of Indian horse thieves and other evil disposed persons, and at present the inhabitants are badly armed, and powder cannot be procured at any price. Under these circumstances, I would respectfully request that you place at my disposal (for the defense of the lives and property of the citizens of said District) subject to such conditions as you may deem proper the following arms and ammunition, viz.
(100) One hundred Flint Lock muskets with corresponding accoutrements [sic].
(10,000) Ten thousand Flint Lock musket Ball & Buckshot cartridges.
(500) Five hundred musket Flints."


I feel the quote is notworthy because I've not seen a great many quotes that spelled out the ratio of flints to shots as clearly as this does.
Based on this he was asking for replacement flints at a rate of 20 shots per flint.

Thought you folks would be interested.

 

[sundog]

Boy that seems like a pritty consertive estimate of # of shots per flint.
I would think maby they he was being on the cautious side but perhaps they were getting low quality flints. It certainly is somthing to think about.

 

[Swampman]

I don't believe I've ever seen a flint last 20 shots.

 

[El Lobo]

I think there is a lot of variation in flint life, depending on the quality of flint, type of lock and how that lock is tuned. Last year I bought a .50 caliber Yorktown rifle made by Cabin Creek. When I bought the rifle I ordered a dozen Tom Fuller flints for it from TOW. Since then I have shot that rifle at several monthly club shoots and practice sessions and at two rendezvous. I have 8 flints left. The first one I installed gave me at least 40 shots, using Paul Vallandigham's frizzen napping method. I didn't count the number of shots on the ones I installed after the first, but they must have performed fairly well or I would not have so many left over.

 

[Dave K]

Depends on the quality of the lock. I have some locks(all made by the same manufacture) that will go 60+ shots without taking a glance at them. Then knap them and go for up to 300+ shots total( lost count). Then I have several locks (another manufacture) that you are lucky to get 20 shots out of them. Must have been the locks that Stephen Folser got.

 

[Dphar]

In the book OLD SPANISH TRAIL- THE FAR WEST AND THE ROCKIES HISTORICAL SERIES 1820-1875, VOLUME I by LeRoy R. Hafen & Ann. W. Hafen, 1954, THE ARTHUR H. CLARK COMPANY, Glendale, California, U.S.A., the author on page 254 writes:

"The raids on California ranches became so serious that Stephen C. Folser, prefect of the district of Los Angeles appealed on September 29, 1849, to Bennett Riley, the new American military governor of California:

"As Prefect of said District of Los Angeles, I beg leave to state that the District is particularly exposed to the depredations of Indian horse thieves and other evil disposed persons, and at present the inhabitants are badly armed, and powder cannot be procured at any price. Under these circumstances, I would respectfully request that you place at my disposal (for the defense of the lives and property of the citizens of said District) subject to such conditions as you may deem proper the following arms and ammunition, viz.
(100) One hundred Flint Lock muskets with corresponding accoutrements [sic].
(10,000) Ten thousand Flint Lock musket Ball & Buckshot cartridges.
(500) Five hundred musket Flints."


I feel the quote is notworthy because I've not seen a great many quotes that spelled out the ratio of flints to shots as clearly as this does.
Based on this he was asking for replacement flints at a rate of 20 shots per flint.

Thought you folks would be interested.

Sounds about right. A musket is not terribly hard on flints. Usually big parts, moving slow and the flint is pretty robust.
Likely they were planning on 25-30 shots a flint with some cushion.
A GOOD lock often needs little flint knapping and I would wonder if soldiers were even told to do this. Remember that in linear tactics on the conventional battlefield maybe 5 shots before going to the bayonet.
In non-conventional warfare maybe more shots would be fired.
I never expect more than 20-30 shots from a rifle flint. Not RELIABLE shots anyway. I have locks that do better but some that are worse.

Dan

 

[bingo1952]

That sounds about right for a military musket. The Brits used to issue 1 flint for each 20 rounds and like Dan said there was some cushion there. If your musket is still firing after the twentieth round I wouldn't think you would arbitrarily change the flint just because you had a new one.

 

[CZMark]

That sounds about right for a military musket. The Brits used to issue 1 flint for each 20 rounds and like Dan said there was some cushion there. If your musket is still firing after the twentieth round I wouldn't think you would arbitrarily change the flint just because you had a new one.

If I was headed into battle, I think I would change it.

 

[bingo1952]

True enough but if you were already engaged you wouldn't stop to change it until you suffered a failure to fire and and had to.

 

[Johnny Tremain]

My first flinter was a production Petrocelli
The best it ever did was 6-8 shots per rock.

My last flinter has a tuned Chamber's Late kethland on it. I Average 60-80 shots easy per rock.

 

[CZMark]

True enough but if you were already engaged you wouldn't stop to change it until you suffered a failure to fire and and had to.

Agreed

 

[tg]

No doubt they would lean toward the conservative side, what strikes me when reading this letter is how late into the percussion cap period it is (1849) and they are asking for flintlocks, the military had already strated to convert before then, if there was a serious loss of life and property I would be asking for some caplock rifles and revolving pistols but these folks may have been at the bottom of the political food chain. This letter mentions that the inhabitants are so "poorly armed", how does the order he made improve this unless they are using clubs, sometimes things like this raise more questions the deeper you read, I have virtualy no knowledge of Kawlifonia history at the time this mentions, but find the whole scenario very interesting.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

a lot has to do with lock geometry, tuning, etc. If a flint just bashes into the frizzen at a right angle, it will bust up pretty early on.

The flint should strike the frizzen on the down stroke with an arc that is just slightly less curved than the arc of the frizzen.

I have a 30 yr old Curley Gostomski smoothbore. I use that gun for small game hunting, firing about 15 or 20 shots per season. It has had the same English flint for at least 5 yrs, and probably longer. A friend of mine had a early 1960's long rifle with a custom made lock. He claims he has used the same French amber flint for nearly 20 yrs. My CVA flint pistol would eat a flint almost every 10 shots. My TC Hawkens would eat more flints than it would fire shots.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

TG, some flint muskets were still being used in the US civil war. Flint locks were more reliable from one standpoint. You didn't need caps. If you had a flintlock, you could make due with nearly any black powder. But a percussion musket required caps or they were worthless.

 

[renovato]

Depends on the quality of the lock. I have some locks(all made by the same manufacture) that will go 60+ shots without taking a glance at them. Then knap them and go for up to 300+ shots total( lost count). Then I have several locks (another manufacture) that you are lucky to get 20 shots out of them. Must have been the locks that Stephen Folser got.

I think it depends on the flint too. My only flinter (so far) is an Austin & Halleck, and it needs the lock tuned badly. I average about 70 shots on a Black English Flint, with a few reknappings along the way. I had one flint go well over 100 shots.

Maybe it's because I wrap it in lead instead of leather! (ducks and runs) :rotf:

 

[bingo1952]

The 1842 was the first standard percussion musket adopted by the US and if I know anything about the government and the military this didn't happen overnight most especially west of the Mississippi. That's only 7 years. As zimmerstuetzen said a lot of regiments went to war on both sides with firelocks early on.

 

[Geraldo]

No doubt they would lean toward the conservative side, what strikes me when reading this letter is how late into the percussion cap period it is (1849) and they are asking for flintlocks, the military had already strated to convert before then, if there was a serious loss of life and property I would be asking for some caplock rifles and revolving pistols but these folks may have been at the bottom of the political food chain.

Good point, but there weren't many revolvers available as Dragoons were just starting to be produced. Perhaps he was asking for something he knew to be in inventory instead of something that would require an order and funding.

 

[rabjr]

Interesting...don't sound like the military ever knapped the flints. Guess they figured it was easier, quicker just to change out the flint?

 

[tg]

"TG, some flint muskets were still being used in the US civil war"

I realize that the flintlock lived a life quite long after the caplocks introduction, I have developed a modest understanding of gun history in the 18th and 19th centuries, I was juist curious, not only about the locks but the smoothbore barrels and buck and ball cartridges, it sounds like he may have been arming those who were possibly not at a high level of gun awareness, he may have tried and failed to order more modern equipment or just did not bother as he knew it would not be done or the intended users would not be able to make use of rifles, I think this is the key, the buck and ball ammo for the guns probably tells quite a bit about these folks who were in danger.

 

[rich pierce]

If you ever get a chance to look at period flints such as have been recovered in shipwrecks, they are not impressive by today's standards. many are thick, wide angled, and humpy.