Hodgens Triple 7 ?

[Luke M]

Shooting my ML the other day and was having great groups shooting PRB's and Pyrodex RS in my .50, I use Bore Butter as a patch lube, always have. Cleaned up my bore with NO.13 and started to try a new can T7 FF, accuracy went away instantly. Used loads from 60 to 75 grains in 5 gr increments. Could not find a patch down range and what I did find was burnt almost gone, started to become really hard to seat a PRB within 5 shots. I could shoot 20 rounds before cleaning the barrel with Pyrodex, 5 shots with T7 and I could verily seat a ball?? I'm thinking the sugar based T7 was having adverse effects with the Bore Butter. Anyone else have problems shooting T7 with PRB's

 

[necchi]

I'm thinking the sugar based T7 was having adverse effects with the Bore Butter.

Oh yeah. Truth to that.

Anyone else have problems shooting T7 with PRB's

Nope. I've used the stuff for over a decade in several rifles with extraordinary accuracy results on paper and game.
I did have to change my patch and lube combination to find the finest points of the well known and reliable powder T7.
I did have to dump the paraffin based bore butter completely and do a major cleaning of it's residue from all my rifles before I found how well it worked.
There was a learning curve that required the difficult and ill fated thing called "change". But it all worked out really well.
You can always hand the stuff off to someone you don't like as a gift and get some more Pyrodex(?)

 

[cynthialee]

put a wad between the powder and the patched ball, end any issue of powder fouling out the gate, also it helps to clear the bore for the PRB

swab the bore between shots. Just use a bore mop that is damp with 90% or higher rubbing alcohol or denatured alcohol. I won't load a foul barrel. Too hard after a few shots and I shoot to keep my hunting shot sharp. My shots on Bambi are always with a freshly loaded gun so keeping my bore clean between shots makes sense to me so I have the same conditions as much as possible each shot.

Go down to a 50 grain charge with the T7 and work up in 2 grain increments. You will find your sweet load.

 

[ppg1949]

Luke, you didn’t mention what your Pyrodex load was. I only ask because Hodgdon recommends using 15% less T7 by volume compared to the volume of Pyrodex. It may not be the problem but it could lead to a solution. Ditto on T7 and BoreButter. Good luck and keep us posted.

 

[longcruise]

I'm thinking the sugar based T7 was having adverse effects with the Bore

I don't think t7 is sugar based. It seems like most of the sugar based stuff has bee relatively weak and failed in the market.

 

[longcruise]

Here's some history of sugar based subs from the Mad Monk archives.

https://archive.org/details/mad_mon...les complete/clear_shot/mode/1up?view=theater

 

[Luke M]

Luke, you didn’t mention what your Pyrodex load was. I only ask because Hodgdon recommends using 15% less T7 by volume compared to the volume of Pyrodex. It may not be the problem but it could lead to a solution. Ditto on T7 and BoreButter. Good luck and keep us posted.

I was using 70gr. Pyrodex RS

 

[Luke M]

I don't think t7 is sugar based. It seems like most of the sugar based stuff has bee relatively weak and failed in the market.

I was researching it online last night. Found it was sugar based.

 

[Luke M]

Oh yeah. Truth to that.


Nope. I've used the stuff for over a decade in several rifles with extraordinary accuracy results on paper and game.
I did have to change my patch and lube combination to find the finest points of the well known and reliable powder T7.
I did have to dump the paraffin based bore butter completely and do a major cleaning of it's residue from all my rifles before I found how well it worked.
There was a learning curve that required the difficult and ill fated thing called "change". But it all worked out really well.
You can always hand the stuff off to someone you don't like as a gift and get some more Pyrodex(?)

What did you use for patch lube?

 

[longcruise]

I was researching it online last night. Found it was sugar based.

Do you have any references on that. I'd like to look it up.

 

[Brokenbear]

Use 3F T7 .. not 2F ..as having no fouling to speaking of in a .58 using 3F

Bear

 

[Luke M]

Do you have any references on that. I'd like to look it up.

I just searched T7 and all references came up with sugar base

 

[Luke M]

Do you have any references on that. I'd like to look it up.

Im in Grand Junction CO. Do you know of anybody on this side of the mountain that does muzzle loading shoots? Havent heard of to many people over here that enjoys BP.

 

[longcruise]

@Luke M I'll see what I can find in the GJ area. Pretty sure there's a group in Montrose.

Here is a description from Hodgedon. Comparing Pyrodex and T7

These propellants have essentially the same overall appearance and oxidizers, but different fuels. For example, Pyrodex(®) contains sulfur, sodium benzoate, and dicyandiamide (DCDA), whereas Triple Seven(®) lacks sulfur but also contains 3-nitrobenzoic acid

Here is the ingredients for t7

The ingredient that suggests sugar is Dextrin at 10%. Not exactly a sugar. The sugar based powders were primarily sugar based along with potassium nitrate. They were all notoriously weak. Goex made and marketed "Clear Shot". Which was not very well received. Jim Shockey's Gold was the same thing but it turned out to be all hype.


dex·trin
/ˈdekstrən/
Learn to pronounce
noun
a soluble gummy substance obtained by hydrolysis of starch, used as a thickening agent and in adhesives and dietary supplements.

 

[trad_bowhunter1965]

I only use T7 FF in my cap lock never had any fouling problems but I don't shoot a lot of round ball just Maxi Mini and conical in 36cal Bullet 128 FF 30gr and 54cal Bullet 425 FF 80gr shoots awesome.

 

[Luke M]

@Luke M I'll see what I can find in the GJ area. Pretty sure there's a group in Montrose.

Here is a description from Hodgedon. Comparing Pyrodex and T7

These propellants have essentially the same overall appearance and oxidizers, but different fuels. For example, Pyrodex(®) contains sulfur, sodium benzoate, and dicyandiamide (DCDA), whereas Triple Seven(®) lacks sulfur but also contains 3-nitrobenzoic acid

Here is the ingredients for t7

View attachment 175603

The ingredient that suggests sugar is Dextrin at 10%. Not exactly a sugar. The sugar based powders were primarily sugar based along with potassium nitrate. They were all notoriously weak. Goex made and marketed "Clear Shot". Which was not very well received. Jim Shockey's Gold was the same thing but it turned out to be all hype.


dex·trin
/ˈdekstrən/
Learn to pronounce
noun
a soluble gummy substance obtained by hydrolysis of starch, used as a thickening agent and in adhesives and dietary supplements.

There we go. Dont believe everything you read on the Web. I just wonder way it seemed to act so negatively with T/C Bore Butter. And what would be a better patch lube

 

[longcruise]

And what would be a better patch lube

There's no end to the answer to that question.

I have probably tried 20 or so. Can't say that any were failures. It seems that the most important thing is consistency in application and not overdoing it.

 

[necchi]

What did you use for patch lube?

It's like @longcruise said,

There's no end to the answer to that question.

I've adopted the "System" of brother Dutch, many years ago.
The methods of the entire internal ballistics of the patched round ball are varied and too many to mention.
So before this turns into another "best" thread, (that is easy to research.)
It's best to determine what your goals are. And how much study, time, and investment YOU are willing to make to achieve those goals?

 

[mnbearbaiter]

I have trouble with access to real BP in my part of MN so I went with ffg T7 in all my ml inc the shotguns I have. I have a 54cal TVM Leman that I use 100gr ffg T7 in under an unlubed 1/8" felt wad, TOTW Mink Oil lubed .015 cotton patch w/ .530 Hornady rb. Shoots great from 80-100gr charge. I just heat up tin of lube on stove and dunk 5-6 patches in it at a time with needle nose pliers. Put 20 or so in a stack and push down to force em into a cake. Heavily lubed, but I've shot 20-30 shots without cleaning at range with no issue.

 

[mnbearbaiter]

I use CCI Mag #11s. I also will melt patch lube down and get some on bore mop and coat inside of brrl as well as put on rag and rub down entire outside of gun before storing. Leaves a tacky almost weather resistant finish on rifle when it dries? Good stuff and perfect for hunting. Doesn't get runny in heat nor does it freeze in frigid temps.