Horn staple question

[J.M.]

I am working on a powderhorn and had a question on using staples. I will use one on the plug, but was thinking of using one for the forward end to hold the strap. I am curious as to how it is attached directly to the horn. I was thinking I could drill holes slightly undersized and try to gently tap the staple in, or drill holes the same size and epoxy them in place. Also, is it OK to drill through the horn for this? The horn walls are pretty thin. Thanks in advance for any input!

 

[Goldhunter]

Are you drilling into the thin body or the thicker, more solid neck/tip?

I haven't tried it, but I've read where the staple was put into the thin part just down from the spout, and the staple was bent over on the inside to hold it in. :hmm:

 

[J.D.]

Are you drilling into the thin body or the thicker, more solid neck/tip?

I haven't tried it, but I've read where the staple was put into the thin part just down from the spout, and the staple was bent over on the inside to hold it in. :hmm:

Yep. IMHO the staple in the horn neck was not used to attach a strap to the horn. However, the strap was passed through the staple and around the horn. The strap through staple merely held the horn in a comfortable position so's the neck would conform to one's body, as opposed to twisting away from the body to catch on any clutching branches in the woods.

Some horns naturally lay next to the wearers body, some don't. The staple in the neck was a way to make the errant horn conform.

 

[Harddog]

J.D. is correct, the strap is not attached to the staple, but goes through the staple to orient the position of the horn against your body.

I drill a couple of holes perhaps .001" or .002" undersize of the staple diameter and lightly pound the staple through the horn. Then you have to go inside the horn with something that will allow you to bend the legs of the staple over. Sometimes a screwdriver will do it and other times you can do it with a bent piece of drill rod. Anything you can get inside the horn and bend the legs of the staple. The staple legs do not have to be completely bent over as in a 90 degree bend, just bent enough so there is not chance of the staple coming out.

Since the staple is for orientation purposes only there is not a whole lot of pressure on the staple which would be trying to pull the staple out of the horn.

Randy Hedden

 

[paulvallandigham]

f you are going to staple Through the thin part of the horn, use some epoxy or glue to seal the hole around the staple. An undersized hole works wonders, but over time, even that can be enlarged. Unless you have scraped the neck of a horn too thin, there is always much more horn material at that part of a horn, than the this sides appear back at the plug end.

The other technique to consider is to use a neck off another horn, which is glued inside your existing horn, providing a new neck " extension " on which you can form proper grooves to hold the horn strap. You cut off the neck end of your existing horn to make this kind of "addition". Doing this allows the neck of the horn to be pointed in whatever direction you need to have the horn hug your body.

 

[pichou]

J.D. is correct, the strap is not attached to the staple, but goes through the staple to orient the position of the horn against your body.

No offense, guys, but can you back this up?

I have seen a lot of original horns with staples front and back. I have seen a few where the wood screw in the plug had been pulled out, plugged with wood, and had a new screw next to the old hole...

BUT, I have never seen a horn that had lost a staple, rear OR front.

Just a thought. :hmm:

 

[Black Hand]

IMHO the staple in the horn neck was not used to attach a strap to the horn....

Sorry, but I'm not buying this either. You're not carrying 20 pounds of rocks here. You have a simple staple pounded into a stout part of the horn that is sufficient to hold the weight of the full horn. And I really doubt that the ends need to be bent over to hold it IF the staple is securely affixed into undersized holes.

 

[omarick1948]

Has anyone truly ever seen an original powder horn or any documentation of bent over spout end staples bent over? .... Just wondering!

I have not!.... Of all the powder horns that I have made with a spout staple, I too, drill a slight undersized holes, but tip the ends with a little epoxy and tap the staple in. No rocket science here! On a larger powder horn with a very long neck. How in the heck would you bend over the staple ends from the inside, when the channel (pouring hole) is 1/4 inch or less, in the case of a priming horn?

Yes, the staple was in most case's used as a guide for the attached strap. You can see several examples in AMERICAN ENGRAVED POWDER HORNS and I think Scott Sibley's book shows pictures of horns with the staple mounted on the side of the powder horn for the strap to go thru and around the body of the horn.

 

[crockett]

Hey I'm learning something here, just because there is a staple at the spout end doesn't mean the thong/strap was attached to the staple, the thong/strap went under/through the staple and around the spout end of the horn? In other words the purpose of the staple was to keep the thong/strap from sliding up or down the horn? Is that correct? Thanks.

 

[pichou]

I'm not from Missouri, but you still need to show me. :wink:

I have seen bent ends, I have seen staples set lengthwise, and staples set crosswise. I have seen eye screws that line up with the length of the horn, and eyes that line up across the horn. I have seen so few intact straps that it would be hard to just pull a fact out of thin air.

Since I have never heard this theory before, since I have never seen this before, I need to see examples. Show me. :surrender:

 

[Harddog]

No offense, guys, but can you back this up?

I have seen a lot of original horns with staples front and back. I have seen a few where the wood screw in the plug had been pulled out, plugged with wood, and had a new screw next to the old hole...

BUT, I have never seen a horn that had lost a staple, rear OR front.

Just a thought. :hmm:

The question is not whether you have seen any horns with missing staples, but why don't you see a lot of old horns with missing staples. Could it be because the staple legs were bent over inside the horn?

You are saying that you believe that a rather large threaded wood screw can pull out of a butt plug, but you can't believe that a staple with no threads can't? I have seen a couple of old horns that were missing the butt plug staple.

You would probably also be surprised to know that some butt plug staples were driven all the way through the wood and the legs were bent over to retain the staple??

Randy Hedden

 

[Harddog]

Has anyone truly ever seen an original powder horn or any documentation of bent over spout end staples bent over? .... Just wondering!

When horners with a lot more experience and knowledge than I have tell me that the spout staples and sometimes the butt plug staple went through to the inside of the horn and the staple legs were bent over to hold them, I tends to believe them and make my horns that way. I don't often get a chance to tear a nice old horn apart to see if the staple legs have been bent over, but some horn makers and horn collectors have been able to look at horns that have been broken and can see inside the horn.

Of all the powder horns that I have made with a spout staple, I too, drill a slight undersized holes, but tip the ends with a little epoxy and tap the staple in. No rocket science here! On a larger powder horn with a very long neck. How in the heck would you bend over the staple ends from the inside, when the channel (pouring hole) is 1/4 inch or less, in the case of a priming horn?

If you were making traditional horns with traditional methods there wouldn't be any epoxy to use. In fact, at least when it comes to butt plugs, it doesn't appear that any kind of glue was used in the manufacture of powder horns

Yes, the staple was in most case's used as a guide for the attached strap. You can see several examples in AMERICAN ENGRAVED POWDER HORNS and I think Scott Sibley's book shows pictures of horns with the staple mounted on the side of the powder horn for the strap to go thru and around the body of the horn.

Well, does that answers Pichou's question? I know if I were to get out my horn books I could find examples, but I was just to lazy to page through several volumes to find those examples.

Randy Hedden

 

[Harddog]

Hey I'm learning something here, just because there is a staple at the spout end doesn't mean the thong/strap was attached to the staple, the thong/strap went under/through the staple and around the spout end of the horn? In other words the purpose of the staple was to keep the thong/strap from sliding up or down the horn? Is that correct? Thanks.

Crockett,

The staple was not used to keep the strap from slipping up and down the horn. The natural tapered shape of the horn keeps the strap from sliding up the horn. Usually on a horn without a staple there will be some kind of larger ring of horn that keeps the strap from sliding down the horn while the natural taper of the horn keeps the strap from sliding up the horn.

Randy Hedden

 

[Harddog]

On a larger powder horn with a very long neck. How in the heck would you bend over the staple ends from the inside, when the channel (pouring hole) is 1/4 inch or less, in the case of a priming horn?

Horner,

Staples were not a common feature on all horns. Not until about 1755-80 did staples become common and then only on certain horns. You begin to see staple on the Pennsylvania screw tip horns and this feature migrated along with Pennsylvania long rifles down into some southern states, notably North and South Carolina and Virginia. I don't believe I have ever seen a staple used on any horn but the various screw tip horns and the southern banded horns.

On the screw tip horns the spout is, of course, removable and reveals a much larger spout hole under the screw tip. The staples which were common on these types of horns was mounted right at the horn end of the spout and not way up in the throat of the horn. In fact, you could say that these type of horns had no throat, but only a spout. The larger hole that is revealed when the screw tip is removed lets you use larger in diameter to bend the staple legs over.

Another thing, I believe, is that a lot of modern horn makers tend to make and use staples made of wire that is to large in diameter and difficult to bend over inside the horn. On internally threaded screw tip spouts a horn collar is applied to the tip of the horn and the actual screw tip, with a male thread, screws into the horn. On this kind of horn one leg of the staple goes right into the applied collar to hold the collar and help hold it in place. Notable types of screw tip horns with the internal threads and a large collar are the Philadelphia screw tip horns and the Berks county screw tip horns.

Randy Hedden

 

[J.D.]

Like Randy, I base my information on long time collectors who currently own or have owned horns containing staples with remnants of straps wrapped around the horn, under the staple. These horns often had unusual twists, or some anomaly that did not allow them to ride close to the body. Some staples appeared, on first glance, to be positioned on the "side" of the horn, but on closer inspection, the strap through the staple prevented the horn from rotating out of position.

I'm sure that in some cases the staple did also prevent the strap from sliding off the neck of the horn, depending on the style and construction of the horn.

That does NOT mean that straps were NEVER attached directly to a staple, but the general consensus from very knowledgeable collectors is that the strap usually wrapped around the horn.

That's all I got.
J.D.

 

[pichou]

That works for me. Thanks.

 

[J.M.]

Hi again, thanks for all the replies they are very informative and I appreciate you sharing your knowledge and time!

 

[crockett]

Well I for one have learned something new. Thanks everyone, really appreciate it. When I make a horn I look around for a particular horn that will fit against my side and use that, I did not know that the purpose of the staple was to make a horn rest properly against one's side, bet a lot of folks don't know that. It also explains the thin staples one often sees, since the staple doesn't have to hold the horn.
On some of my early horns I used staples and tied the strap to the staple. I used a fairly heavy nail bent in a "U" shape with the prongs a little off of the hole so they had to be squeezed to fit, that and some epoxy did the trick, never had one come out.
About a year ( or a year and a half) ago the magazine "Muzzle Loader" had an article featuring Roland Cadle of west PA. I've spoken to Roland, he is one of the best. In any event in this article Roland uses thin staples and bends over the ends inside the horn, he also hollows out the inside of the base plug- this was on a PA screw tip type horn. Roland has done a lot of research on these type horns so I would go with his technique.

 

[omarick1948]

Well Randy,..you answered my question about "JUST WONDERING"!

As far as Traditional powder horns being made traditionally, I'll have to work on that one!

Those couple of tiny spots of Epoxy on the ends of the staple points are used as a seal, as well as securing the staple......and you know what! It doen't take away from the appearence of the horn and I've never lost sleep or staple over it yet!

I do know several well experienced and established Horners who commonly use that old PC/Traditional RIT DYE to color their horns......circa 1925(?).... Shame on them!

I salute PC and Tradition and those that claim they only make or do something that way, but in reality we ALL "kid" ourselves. We live in modern times and use modern methods in many area's. My workshop has modern electricity for lighting. Some of my tools (rasps, files, cabinet scapers etc.) are modern machine made. I turn and hollow my P/H butt plugs and other powder horn piece's on an electric power lathe and also use a band saw and sometimes a scroll saw (butt plug fitting). We use our Computer's to order our PC/Traditional gear and use TMF and the list can go on for a long list of activities.

I know that their are many who wouldn't admit this, but I think the end justifies the means for duability and appearence in the end product, craft or FINISHED Product. In this case powder horn!

 

[Harddog]

Horner75,

I wasn't knocking your use of epoxy on the ends of a staple.The thread started with a question about the installation and purpose of staples which Goldhunter answered. Then J.D. answered to back up Goldhunter and added a bit more info on how staples were installed. Then I answered with a back up to what J.D. had said and added a bit more information.

Then Pichou entered the thread with his "Can you back this up", "Let me see some pictures" and "Show me some examples". From that point on for the rest of the thread I was talking about how horns were traditionally made and how staples were installed in the early days.

In response to you saying you used blind holes in the horn and put a little epoxy on the staple legs, I was still talking about how horns were traditionally made without any epoxy or apparently any kind of glue what-so-ever.

I don't care if you or anyone else uses epoxy, I was just saying that epoxy and glue was not used in powder horn construction during the 18th century and early 19th century.

As far as using RIT dye, I believe RIT formulated their dyes from previously known early plant, vegetable and mineral dyes. Many things were used to dye items back in the 18th century. I don't think that plant or vegetable based dyes were used to dye powder horns, but it is used today as a quick and easy way to dye a powder horn. I use RIT dye to color horns once in awhile and use several other materials to make dye for my horns. I have also formulated several colors of acid dyes that I use on my horns. The simple fact of the matter is that most buyers of modern made powder horns don't care for white bodied horns that will eventually develop a nice patina and opt for a horn that has been artificially dyed. I don't have anything against anyone who uses RIT dye, but there are a lot of other things that will dye a powder horn just as well as RIT dye. I try to use a variety of different dyes so that all my horns don't look exactly alike in color.

As far as the use of electric lathes, lights, etc. I hope you don't think that every horn made in the 18th century was handmade. The horns we were talking about, screw tip horns were made in horn factories. Some of these factories had water powdered lathes and drills. Others had foot powered lathes. The birth of these horn factories, with their lathes, drills and other machine tools coincided with the advent and progression of the Industrial Revolution in the United States. These horn factories turned out thousands of horns each year from the 1770's to the 1830's and beyond. As late as 1840, records show two shops in Lancaster, Pennsylvania producing almost 20,000 horns a year.

The inside of these factories were arranged much like modern production lines. In the process a turner, "Lathe Operator", put the hot horn on a mandrel and cut the butt end off, maybe added a decorative bead near the butt end and passed the horn to another worker who cut off the spout end and drilled the spout hole and tapped it. Next another turner would cut the outside diameter of the spout to size and machined threads on the outside of the spout. While all this was happening there were other turners who made butt plugs to fit and made the horn screw tip spouts. Then all of the parts go to a finishing or assembly room where the horn is scraped, polished, dyed or decorated and assembled. Each horn factory turned out one horn after another and they all looked alike.

This whole process wasn't nearly as primitive as many people think it was. So if I use an electric powered lathe to make the horn parts and then assemble them the same way they were assembled in the horn factories, I feel that I am coming pretty close to producing period correct horns. In other words, if I end up with a horn that has three or four parts that are assembled, dyed, polished and decorated by the same method as the original horn, then I, in essence, have a period correct horn regardless of whether I used an electric powered lathe to make the parts.

As far as the ends justifying the means, I agree with you somewhat. I have seen pictures of several of your horns and they look great. However,I don't believe that the horns you make are of any better quality, will last longer, or are any better looking than the horns that I make.

Randy Hedden