Houston, we have a problem...

[necchi]

I'm not sure. I bought them at Cabela's.

Should be a name on the bag of patches,, which ones ya git?
But honestly,, that's what real BP does,, foul like an S.O.B.
It's way different from the other stuff, hang with us for awhile,, there are a few different "techniques" that will help a lot.
It just takes experimenting,, But the "experimenting" , means just that,, more shooting and cleaning till find ya it.

 

[JamesA]

An after thought, I will swab after every shot from now on. It could only help. Now, if I could just get my eyesight to improve

 

[JamesA]

Should be a name on the bag of patches,, which ones ya git?
But honestly,, that's what real BP does,, foul like an S.O.B.
It's way different from the other stuff, hang with us for awhile,, there are a few different "techniques" that will help a lot.
It just takes experimenting,, But the "experimenting" , means just that,, more shooting and cleaning till find ya it.

Cabela's .50 to .59 cal. Shooting Patch.
• Die cut from carefully selected 100% cotton fabric
• Lubed with a natural lubricant that is environmentally safe
• Has been tested under extreme conditions

I learned to answer questions from a guy that if you asked him what time it is, he would tell you how to build a clock. He drove me NUTS!

Geeze, it's almost 2 AM, I gotta go to bed....take care.

 

[French Colonial]

Agree to the above, prelubed patches are not wet enough.

Wetter......, Ballistol and water, Mr. Flintlock (which I am going to experiment with someday) or good old spit patches (my preferred method) anything to do to get some moisture down there as you seat the ball, wiping as you push the ball down.

 

[LANEY REECE]

JamesA,If you will take advice of the shooters here they will Help you out. Good shooting and people here. LANEY REECE

 

[fromrusk]

So many suggestions, thank you all. I have a lot of things to try.

When I bought the Hawken, along with not being able to find real black powder, #11 percussion caps were not available. I bought some CCI Musket caps, got the correct nipple and started shooting that way. I measured the lands and grooves of the barrel, Grooves, .510" and the lands .501". Does that sound right? All that was available was .495 dia. round balls so I found some material that was .005" thick and shot that way. Little to no fouling then.

When .490 dia. round balls became available, I switched over to using them and the .010 patch. One thing I have noticed about the patches, they come out shredded, even with the thin patch.

With my old CVA .45 cal Kentucky, I just used pillow/mattress ticking, I have no idea how thick it was. I don't remember the exact diameter of the ball but .440 dia. rings a bell. The patches always looked good, like the ones BillKilgore pictured.

I hope this makes sense, I'm not sure if it's important or not. Anyway, thanks again for all the suggestions.

If your patches come out shredded, maybe you have a barrel with too much twist, i.e.; 1:48, my experience has been this rate of twist does not like patched round ball. Being a target model, I bet that's the case. The shredded patch does no wiping and allows a lot of blow by.

 

[fillwa]

Blue windshield washer fluid works for me as a patch lube. Albeit there are many recipes for patch lube.

I load powder then corn meal on top of powder using a 9mm shell casing as a measure, then very wet patch with ball. The corn meal allows me to load a very wet patch with out getting the powder wet.

 

[Diplomat22]

I use 3 parts water to 1 part liquid dish soap, also started using Triple 7 3f in 45 cal Pedersoli Kentucky rifle. 60 grains at 100 yds.

 

[Tenring]

Pre Lubed Patches over time seem to get stiff and do not do a good job of smoothly running down the barrel. Make up some patches as you go at the range and clean between shots, I use a patch with Windex and follow up with a dry And then load..

 

[Timber Wolf]

I was using preluded patches and 60 grains of Schuetzen 3f (CVA Mountain Rifle .45) a few weeks back at our Woods Walk and noticed loading got tough around three shots. But, although tough to push through a few places in the barrel it did not get any worse in subsequent shots. I was carrying a steel range rod so just pushed through each time and kept shooting.

 

[Tenring]

A Steel Range Rod is nice to have when things get a little gummy and you can Muscle right through .

 

[JamesA]

A Steel Range Rod is nice to have when things get a little gummy and you can Muscle right through .

Would brass be better? I would be concerned that the steel ramrod might damage the barrel. The one I use is fiberglass, it's my "range rod". That thing is really tough, it will flex a lot but it hasn't broken yet.

 

[Relic shooter]

Hello from Kuna, Id. !
JamesA your getting tons of great loading tips on the forum
Should you continue to have shooting issues feel free to PM me as we're neighbors.
Your issues remind me of mine when I started shooting front stuffers 60 years ago & had to learn by trial & mostly error.
Relic shooter

 

[JamesA]

If your patches come out shredded, maybe you have a barrel with too much twist, i.e.; 1:48, my experience has been this rate of twist does not like patched round ball. Being a target model, I bet that's the case. The shredded patch does no wiping and allows a lot of blow by.

You are correct. It's 1:48 according to the manufacturer's specs.

 

[JamesA]

Hello from Kuna, Id. !
JamesA your getting tons of great loading tips on the forum
Should you continue to have shooting issues feel free to PM me as we're neighbors.
Your issues remind me of mine when I started shooting front stuffers 60 years ago & had to learn by trial & mostly error.
Relic shooter

Hello neighbor!

 

[flntlokr]

Finally got out to the range yesterday. Fired a few rounds. My biggest problem now is the fouling caused by using real black powder. After the third shot, if I don't swab the barrel, it takes a feat of strength to get the patched ball down the barrel. I am shooting 75 gr. of FFFG Schuetzen black powder, .490 round ball (Hornady), and a .010 pre lubed patch, winchester magnum percussion cap. Is this too much powder, not enough, what? The first round slides in like it's on greased rails. The second shot, requires a bit of effort. The third round requires some force. After that, forgetaboutit.

The rifle is a Pedersoli Traditional Hawken Target Rifle, .50 caliber. When I first started shooting it, all that was available was pyrodex. I have tried RS, P, and Select. I didn't have much problem with fouling. After finding a couple pounds of Schuetzen FFFG, that's all I have been using. I like the accuracy I get with Schuetzen but the fouling makes it a S.O.B. to shoot without "swabbing" way too often at the range while shooting and takes forever to remove the fouling from the barrel when cleaning it. I clean the rifle after every trip to the range and upon observation, there is no rust in the barrel. I am kind of at a loss. I could try a thinner patch maybe but I don't want the ball bouncing down the barrel. Thanks in advance for any help.

Funny thing. I shot my .40 squirrel gun 30-40 shots each day over the last 3-day weekend, and didn't clean it once. Just wiped crud off the lock. Lose the greasy patches! For range shooting, use water-based lube, as has been pointed out myriads of times on this forum. Greased patches should be reserved for times when your gun may remainl loaded for long periods of time (hunting?). The wet patch cleans the gun with each new load. If it gets a bit 'sticky' just above the load, use a super wet patch for the next shot, and seat the last bit slow,y to allow the lube to soften and remove the fouling..

 

[SDSmlf]

Your particular gun just may have sharp/rough edges left in the bore from the manufacturing process. There are many ways to polish and smooth it up. Here is a @duelist1954 video showing the process he used on a difficult to load GPR.

I have used a similar method with Scotch-Brite for some time, but Mike explains his very well. I started doing it after speaking to Don Getz (Getz Barrel) years ago before he passed, and he recommended using the green (600 grit) Scotch-Brite for smoothing up barrels that were cutting patches. Said it wouldn’t hurt the barrel.

 

[Relic shooter]

If your patches come out shredded, maybe you have a barrel with too much twist, i.e.; 1:48, my experience has been this rate of twist does not like patched round ball. Being a target model, I bet that's the case. The shredded patch does no wiping and allows a lot of blow by.

 

[Relic shooter]

If 1 in 48" twist was a bad idea then many modern barrel making companies like Thompson Center have been making serious errors for decades.
Most of modern mass-production modern barrel makers use shallow depth rifling. These barrels require the proper tight-fitting ball & lubed patch combo to obtain good accuracy, that combo will also greatly reduce fouling between shots..
It's unfortunate that today's manufacture's don't at least recommend the correct ball & patch combo loading tips with their firearms as many new to Muzzleloading lack the experience to develop the right patch, ball & load combo & give-up this great historical sport.
Many of the pre-cut packaged patches are not made of a tight enough weave & blow-out easily. Consider buying an inexpensive micrometer, Arch Punch & cut your own patches for much less $$ & obtain far better results..

JamesA's problem might also be simply related to a bore that just needs 'conditioning'. We're very fortunate to have this forum with so many vintage shooters. Many of us had no one to ask & had to learn via the school of hard knocks.
I'm sure many forum members have noticed the barrels in their newer 'mass produced' firearms made over the past 50 years have sharp burrs & edges & have found that they only loaded & shot considerably better after the sharp edges had been removed by either lots of shooting or lapping/conditioning of the bore.

I've been shooting mostly original muzzleloaders over the past 60 years. Many are English or European manufactured & used even faster twist rifling with one turn in the length of the barrel that were designed to shoot patched round balls. They produced excellent accuracy because the proper sized mold was also included by the gun maker.
Most originals also have much deeper rifling & obviously required an even thicker lubed patch to fill the groves. These faster twist barrels also required less of a powder charge to obtain superb accuracy..
relic shooter

 

[Grenadier1758]

If the 1 in 48 twist was such a bad choice then Jake and Sam Hawken and most barrel makers in the 19th century built some really inaccurate rifles that were not capable of the legendary accuracy often reported. The grooves in those 19th century rifles were deep to hold the patches. Many modern rifles with 1 in 48 twist rifling are rifled using the button rifling that is quite shallow. When shooters combine very slick patch lube on a thin patch, accuracy on target with a rifle with shallow grooved 1 in 48 twist experience poor accuracy. Load development using patches that must be heavily compressed into the grooves and use a less slick lube, such as a dry lubed patch, is needed to achieve target accuracy.