how about .395 in a .50....?

[the Black Spot]

we have a .40 cal limit on squirrels. just wondered if anyone has tried shooting .395's in a 50 like this. obviously thick patching will be required. thanks in advance

 

[Little Wattsy]

I have NO IDEA about patching THAT thick but in theory...Yes. They also make plastic sabots that allow for smaller RB's like a .395 outt of a .50.

 

[ameling]

LOTS of extra patching does allow you to shoot it, but accuracy suffers a lot. But you have a bigger problem to worry about.

Carefully read your local DNR game regulations!!!!!!

They usually state that min or max caliber for a muzzleloader, but it also usually applies to the size of the GUN BARREL itself, not the size of the projectile! If you are stopped and checked by the game warden, it will be hard for you to prove that you are ONLY using a .395 ball in that .50 caliber barrel. And that "proof" will be on you - since you will have evidence in your hands of using a larger gun.

And game wardens are always looking for the people who are trying to ... cheat or skirt ... the regulations. So decide if it would be worth the criminal charge, and possible loss of both your rifle and hunting rights.

There used to be a fairly common shooting contest at local ron-d-voos around here. Everybody took one of their round balls and tossed it into a hat. Then, as each person stepped up to shoot, there was a "blind draw" of one ball from the hat for that shooter. So you might end up with a .562 to shoot in your .45, or a .443 to shoot in your .58. You never quite knew. The guys who got too large of round balls would quickly try to hammer or carve it into a long "slug" to fit their gun. And those who got one too small, used lots of extra patching. Results were usually fairly random. An "interesting" novelty shoot.

Check those game laws! And also ask for an opinion/interpretation from ... several ... people at the DNR. Better save than sorry.

Sounds like that .40 limit was written by people who have little understanding of muzzleloading rifles. Hmmm ... I wonder what their "interpretation" would be of a smoothbore - since they can shoot either shot or roundball?

Just my humble thoughts to share. Take them as such.

Mikey - yee ol' grumpy German blacksmith out in the Hinterlands

 

[BrownBear]

Sounds like that .40 limit was written by people who have little understanding of muzzleloading rifles. Hmmm ... I wonder what their "interpretation" would be of a smoothbore - since they can shoot either shot or roundball?

We have no limit on guns for taking snowshoe hare up here. In fact there's no closed season and no bag limit.

I frequently use 50, 54, and now 58 cal with reduced charges. "Problem" is, I'm doing most of that hunting outside the big game seasons. So here I am, wandering around with a large cal outside the season claiming to be hunting rabbits. I get scrutinized pretty good, cuzz it's hard for a stranger wearing a badge not to be sceptical in the first place. It helps if you have a hare or two hanging from your belt when the meeting happens, but you're going to have some explaining to do with or without.

It's easy to see how your wildlife folks would write the regs for small cal just to try simplifying the job of the badge toters in the field. In my situation up here though, the interest and conversation about reduced loads and versatility of muzzleloaders that follows usually sparks personal interest in the warden trying the same thing himself. Aint nothing wrong with that!!!!

 

[Bountyhunter]

Make more rules, pass more laws, tax more activities, all while under the influence of Drano-brain. You can shoot a squirrel with a .30-06 but not a .45 PRB? Typical Gestapo logic. Out this way, nobody has a ML rifle of less than .50 cal.

Oughta pass a law that game wardens have to be registered and taxed. Take those badges out of the hands of the kooks that carry them.

The F&G Nazis got so overbearing that about 6 county sheriffs at home just told them to keep out of their counties. Those Sheriffs and County Attorneys sure made a lot of friends with those decisions.

 

[ameling]

Like any profession, there are good people and there are bad people. I personally know several DNR people who are those "good people". They care about their job, but care more about stopping the abuses they have to deal with every day. And their "advice" when rules/regulations are written is often far down the priority list with the people who actually write them. So they end up obligated to enforce things they may not totally agree with.

But there are more and more people in the "law enforcement" professions who have become ... intoxicated ... with the "power" they have been entrusted with. They see themselves as put there to Enforce the law, and Control the people. The really sad part is that there is a part of the law enforcement academy that is actively teaching them that they have been "chosen to be above and to control" the common people.

Of course, it doesn't help much when so many of the people they meet and deal with every day are actively ... skirting ... those laws/rules/regulations.

But just be careful about how those rules/regs are written, and how they are "commonly" interpretted. Here in Iowa, you just don't go out squirrel/rabbit hunting during the fall shotgun deer hunting season. Anybody out hunting is automatically assumed to be deer hunting. A "good" DNR person will listen to you and check your ammo and game bag instead of just writing you up, but they will also advise you not to be out during that short season.

Good and bad. But the REAL decisions/control/evil starts with those legislators writing the rules/regs, and the people twisting their ears!

Mikey - yee ol' grumpy German blacksmith out in the Hinterlands

 

[bingo1952]

Probably have to use the aforementioned sabots or perhaps a suede leather patch. The latter could get to be relatively expensive. Why not buy a second small calibre barrel?

 

[Bountyhunter]

Most of them have chosen to live their lives as a hammer and therefore everything that crosses before their eyes becomes a nail.

About 300 miles southwest of you in the once great state of Kansas, Governor Sellherbutt has appointed a Commission to make those laws and skirt the legislative process. So those of us who work to pay the taxes are expected to live under the nonsense rules of those who use the taxes.

The more I think about that .40 caliber rule, the more stupid it gets, you know? I have five .54 caliber rifles and one .50. Like I'm going to buy a .40 cal just to shoot squirrels. Out where we live, we own or lease every thing that we can see from the headquarters. So, we control everything for at least 2 miles in any direction. I suppose that if I took a hankerin for some skillet meat, that I'd just have to harvest whatever was handy since I control the land, I raise the crops, I manage the flocks/herds, and therefore I consider what ever roams on my property to also be my property. I know that my neighbors would agree with that theory. That is pretty much the take from all the landowners in that region and that is why the County Attorneys notified the F&G to just stay away.

 

[paulvallandigham]

YOur local prosecutor ultimately has to decide which caes to prosecute. If he thinks the F&G people are carrying heavy badges, he simply will dismiss the tickets. If you feel that you have been the victim of the heavy badge, PLEASE, get an attorney and fight. Yes, its going to cost you money- more money than just paying the ticket. But, you will do yourself a favor( a record of past Game Code tickets follows you around, too), as well as other hunters.

My gun club has created a Defense fund, where members can donate money to help pay the attorney fees and costs of members, and sometimes non-members, who we believe are the victims of our police system gone haywire, usually misinterpreting or ignoring the law.

In the past 7 years, we have donated thousands of dollars to help people around the state with their attorney fees. All have seen either the charges dismissed, or have won their cases as trial. ( We also have refused requests for funds when a review of the case indicates the defendant is guilty.) Because of the success of the program, and how our Board of Directors manages the fund, we have no problem raising more money for this purpose.

There is no legal reason why other clubs, or groups of hunters/shooter, cannot join together and create a similar fund. The only problem seems to be that a lot of BP hunters refuse to join clubs, or even find other BP shooters so they can order BP by caselot, and all save money. If you want that kind of independence from EVERYONE, okay, you pay your own expenses. Start Saving. If you think that being that independent is costing you a lot of money you could spend elsewhere more wisely, then make some friends. :redface: :shocked2: :thumbsup:

 

[Bountyhunter]

Paul,


That sounds like good advice, other than it takes money out of the pockets of the hunters and shooters and puts it in the pockets of the lawyers. The money would be better spent cleaning out the commissions and gestapo forces that cause the problem in the first place.

I sat in a private club some years ago and all the lawyers representing a high profile case in the local court were assembled around a table there planning their strategy. I was sitting next to that table and listened to them plan who was going to say what and ask what and how they were convinced that there was still money on the table and how they would continue the case until there was no more money to be had by the parties involved in that case. I lost all my faith in the legal profession at that point. Anytime that a case goes to court, it is all about money and who is going to get paid. The lawyer that gets paid the most, or the judge or whoever is the winner. Not the guy who is bringing the suit.

So the guy is back to square one, of how to get a .50 caliber rifle to become a .40 caliber rifle. But for enough money, I am sure that the court would make a decision on that.

 

[the Black Spot]

here is a link to arkansas squirrel huntng regs:
http://www.agfc.com/hunting/small-game/season-dates-small-game/squirrel-dates.aspx

using the .395 in the .50 may not be to accurate so i may just melt them down(up) into .490's.
or i could get a .40 rifle :grin:

 

[Zonie]

"Squirrels may not be hunted with rifles or pistols larger than .22 caliber rimfire or with muzzleloaders larger than .40 caliber..."
----------

Sounds pretty clear to me.
They are talking about the gun and not the projectile.

Of course this law is written to keep some damn poacher from hunting big game and then when caught saying, "I was just squirrel hunting. Honest!"

That said, this sounds like an excellent reason to go out and buy a small caliber muzzleloading rifle.
Can't have too many, Ah says. :grin:

 

Make more rules, pass more laws, tax more activities, all while under the influence of Drano-brain. You can shoot a squirrel with a .30-06 but not a .45 PRB? Typical Gestapo logic. Out this way, nobody has a ML rifle of less than .50 cal.

Oughta pass a law that game wardens have to be registered and taxed. Take those badges out of the hands of the kooks that carry them.

The F&G Nazis got so overbearing that about 6 county sheriffs at home just told them to keep out of their counties. Those Sheriffs and County Attorneys sure made a lot of friends with those decisions.

Once again politics raises it's ugly head. So much for staying on topic. :shake:

 

[paulvallandigham]

It is also lawyer-lobbyists who are able to get those regulations change, or repealed. There are good and bad lawyers-- I know that comes as a shock to most of you---- and there are things that some law firms do that I believe should lead to their disbarment. But, I don't write those rules, either. I can complain to the folks who do, and recommend changes. I can lobby for them, and try to get others to join me.

There are two laws on the books here in Illinois That I am proudly responsible for helping to write.

I did get our game department ( Ill. Dept. of Conservation, at the time) to change some badly written statutes that NO ONE could understand, as the result of beating them in court. I also lobbied the Dept. for years, as a Hunter Education Instructor to change some regulations, clarify others, and add a couple. I am now having second thoughts about one of them, as I believe its having an unintended consequence that is working against shooters, and hunters. I will begin lobbying for a change in that one. It will be an uphill battle, since the change was based on similar regulations in many other states.

The other regulation I lobbied for has already saved injuries and lives, and reduced our reported Hunting accidents by 1/3. I consider that a huge success, coming from just one additional regulation.

Because I live in a large " college town" many of my friends are professional people, and instructors or professors at the University. They are much smarter than the average guy, but more important, they are not afraid to act. It was a group of these friends who wanted a legal defense fund for the club, and simply asked me how to set it up, and how to manage it. They still look to me for advice on drafting new laws( we have a model Conceal Carry bill, and another, State wide Pre-emption bill that we have drafted, and submitted to our local state legislators), explaining existing laws, and recommending laws that need to be repealed and why. I get new questions from members of my club, or officers, at least once a month. I understand why they defer to an attorney when they are concerned about a question of law. The difference between how I practice law and how some other lawyers practice is that I am not interested in lining my own nest all the time, and I want my clients to be informed, and let them make the decision as to what they think should be repealed, and what new laws should be passed.

I have experience with a couple of attorneys locally, who want to bankrupt both parties after getting all their money as fees. I usually put a stop to it, setting cases for hearings on the main issues, narrowing the issues in dispute, quickly, and then often seeking an " in chambers " conference with the judge to discuss differences in interpretations of law between the two lawyers. Often, a judge will hint at the way he will rule on an issue if those are the facts produced at trial. With that information, I am in a much better position to get the case settled without a trial, and protracted legal expenses. And, very often, there is no disagreement about the facts between the lawyers. Where we go to trial is when there is no agreement on the facts, or all the law, and one or both parties is NOT willing to consider any kind of settlement. This happens in both criminal and civil cases.

I once took a petty offense traffic ticket to trial because the prosecutor hated my client, for reasons he would not say, and would not let him plead to a non-moving violation. The prosecutor thought he had a " Can't lose " case. Then, he didn't listen to his own question to a witness, nor to the witness' answer, got flustered, rested his case, and I stole a win from the jaws of defeat. Even my client didn't realize what had happened, until I explained. Sometimes you just have to teach some lawyers a lesson that there is no case that can't be lost. But, that is a job that only a good lawyer can perform. A lay person hasn't got a chance.

 

[Ironhead]

My two cents worth is I have a .36 cal Kaintucky rifle that I hunt Squirrels with and it's about the most fun pastime I can do with my clothes on

 

[the Black Spot]

thanks all for the input. i guess i was out of line looking at the rule that way. i was thinking projectile and not looking at the complete regulation.
guess i will have to get a .40, melt the lead for the 50 or not hunt squirrels out of deer season.
my hunting is done on private property.
i still want to run some tests for accuracy with the .395's in the 50.

 

[bingo1952]

By all means give it a go. I for one would be interested in your results. :thumbsup:

 

[the Black Spot]

ran some quick tests the other night.

hornady .395 rb in a .50 cal cabelas kentucky flintlock
enough saliva soaked cotton patches to thumb start
20 grain of fffg (Schuetzen)
at ten yards the only three shot group i got was around 5-6". :barf:
this was all by sitting on the ground and resting rifle over the back of a small chair.

tighter patching would probably help. will try jean material next and then go up in powder grains after that.

 

[bingo1952]

Try 3 .025 thick patches to begin. If you can still thumb start add a little more patch. You need a tight seall with that much patch to minimize blowby and make the ball spin.