How close for gongs?

[blacksmithman64]

What would be a safe distance for gong shooting? Worried about richochets and fragmented balls/steel.

 

[RonT]

Matt,
Refer to the "Primitive Target" thread and look at the design of the swivel targets that I made for our club's pistol range. The downward angle seems to deflect the shrapnel down and away....so far. Having experienced direct return ricochets from a dirt bank backstop, and so doubt that 100% fail safe is achievable. You simply do the best you can and hope that it is sufficient.
good luck,
R

 

[Tumblernotch]

In our Primitive Area at our range, the closest gong is about 25 yds from the shooter. We do have a steel plate set closer for young and new shooters to practice on. We've shot everything from .36 cal rifles to .75 cal. smoothbores at all without fragments returning to the shooter.

All are hung with wire or chain. The impact of the ball pushes the gong back at an angle and most of the fragments go down. Some will go to either side. Even at 100 yds the bullet will flatten and spread almost paper thin and fragments will cut a trench perpendicular to the line of fire in the ground at the base of the target.

We use 1/2" steel for most gongs. After a while, 1/4" and even 3/8" thick plates will bend considerably if hit with large caliber balls. We have a triangle gong with a square hole cut in it that is 1/4" thick (a tough target to hit) set out at 40 yds. that is bent into a quarter moon shape.

Like I said, we have a couple set pretty close, but if you want to be extra safe you might set 25 or 30 yds as your minimum on heavy gongs and if you make them so as to swing and give on impact you should have no problems.
:thumbsup:

 

[J.D.]

After a while, 1/4" and even 3/8" thick plates will bend considerably if hit with large caliber balls.

Turn 'em around and shoot at the convex side. They will return to flat in several hundred hits. :thumbsup:

 

[paulvallandigham]

If you mount the wire hangers, or chains to the backside of the metal " gong " sot that the mount is about a quarter of the length of the gong below the top edge, the gong will tip slightly forward towards the shooter. Since the gong is free to swing on being hit, only its weight will allow some backward ricochette during that brief time when the ball is traveling very fast, and the plate is going from standing still, to swing back away from the hit. But, it takes a lot of the energy out of a round ball or bullet to do a 180 !, and any bouceback usually lands within a few feet of the target, and does not travel back to the shooter. By tipping the gong forward, only an edge hit on the top edge of the gong will send any kind of lead back towards the shooter, and almost never the entire ball or bullet. Edges tend to split, and on a tipped target, some will go up, and the rest will go down. Either way, hitting that heavy metal target will sap the ball or bullet of much of its energy and velocity. Most of the lead will be found in the dirt at the base of the gong targets, because the forward angle of the plate starts the balls or bullets in that direction before the gong even begins to move. The movement simply further sucks the velocity out of the ball or bullet. so that it falls to the ground.

When we set up our targets, we had spotters stand at an angle to the plate and about 25 yds away to watch what the balls and /or bullets did on impact. We were using rented land, and had an obligation to not only ourselves, but the landlord, and neighbors to make sure that we had a safe backstop for shooting. We could see the balls hit and splatter the ground below the gong before the gong actually moved.

I don't think we every put a protractor to the gongs to see what angle we were putting on them when we tipped them forward as described, but it appears to be at least 5 degrees, and may be as much as 15 degrees. It does not take much of a forward tip to send the balls into the dirt, we found, and that is all that matters. We do get side splattering, also, and our decision to stand back 25 yards to the side and front of the target when doing our tests proved to be a bright idea. We did not have entire balls or bullets go sideways, however, only bits and pieces of lead.

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

Paul is right again! At a recent gong shoot held in North Jersey, the closet target was 20 yds. away. These gongs were held in place by wire/hardware that allowed the gongs to swing back when struck. They varied in size from the width of your finger to maybe 8 inches square, with the thinner gongs actually being spinners. Almost as much fun as splitting playing cards . Larger gongs and different shapes were placed at longer distances, out to 135 yards. This event was for PRB only, but I also gave the Walker a whack, to great success, all the way out to 135 yds. :shocked2:

As a member of IPSC and USPSA, I shoot static steel at 15 yds. or so using 9's, .40's, .45's, etc. The rounds just splatter into fragments and bounce-back generally is non-existant, except to say that the splatter can come back towards the shooter say about within 2-3 yds. of the steel plate. Having soft ground at the target stand helps keep bounce-back to a minimum as the rest of the energy is absorbed by the ground.

Hope this helps and enjoy the CLANGING & BANGING :thumbsup: .

All the best, Dave

 

[blacksmithman64]

Thanks for the info fellas, maybe I'll hang a few so the whiners have something easy to hit! :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: Just always was cautious about a gong 20 or 30 yards away. As to what Paul said about them; we use at least 1/2" thick plate steel and do hang them tilted forward. I'll hang a couple and give 'em a test anyhow, a fella can never have enough reasons to burn some powder! :hatsoff:

 

[paulvallandigham]

The worst ricochette we have experienced as a club, was when we were allowing handguns to be fired at a railroad tie backstop, and a ball hit a knot in the tie and bounced back all the way to the firing line, and cut a shooter's ankle. It was a small scratch, and some mercurchrome and a bandaid fixed things up, but we decided that the velocity of those handgun balls was just too slow to guarantee penetration of the ties, particularly they old ties that had sat out and weathered in the dirt, and water for years and got a bit spongy. So we banned the use of handguns from most of our demonstrations. We also put a 3/8" thick plywood panel or sheet in front of the RR ties, and hung our targets on the plywood. The plywood acted as a back splash to control any ricochettes off the ties from coming back at the shooters or spectators. When other folks at the sites of our demonstations took it upon themselves to build a " back stop " without consulting us, they were always surprised to see us show up with a 4' x 8' sheet of plywood to put in front of their backstop. When we told them why, you could see the light bulbs go on in their eyes.

 

[Desert Rat]

The only ricochette I ever had was I when I was using a real estate "A" frame sign that was made of plastic. I had brought a "Philly" Deringer and had no idea how much powder to put in it. I set my measure for as small as it would go and fired. The ball bounced back and landed at my feet. I re-shot that same ball about 4 times before it was to mis-shaped to get down the barrel and I figured out it probably wasn't high on the smarts list. I had a great laugh though.....

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

Hi Paul! Bounce-back is not your friend! Reminds me of the time I was out in the woods with a bunch of guys just plinking. We put some soda cans on the ground about 15-20 yards in front of us. Didn't see the concrete sewer pipe coming up out of the ground behind them that was obscured. The .38 flat surface wad-cutter came straight back past my ankles. Needless to say we were all quite surprised :shocked2: . That was three decades ago! Not I'm alot older and WISER :rotf: . I get a little A-R about rounds coming back, believe me.

As to the R.R. ties in the dirt: Cover up the ties with some fresh clean fill and your're ready to go! The ties' job is just to hold the dirt in place so that it doesn't wash away...you folks probably did this already . One last thought...steel belted radial tires also cause bounce-back with low velocity flat points!

Bottom line...nothing beats good-ol fashioned pile of dirt :winking: .

All the best and a happy & healthy Easter to everyone on the Forum, Dave

 

[Tumblernotch]

We've got 'em hung every which way. Depends on who made them and set them up! We've never had lead come anywhere near the shooters. One of our gongs which is a ram is suspended from a rebar frame driven in the ground at 90 yds. One day I hammered it in the head and the butt so many times with my Charleville I twisted it loose from the rod that connected it to the pipe sleeve that allowed it to swing. I welded gussets to it and reinforced the sleeve. I also welded a piece of angle iron to the vertical rod to deflect any wild shots. Once, when I was shooting at it with a Whitworth rifle my buddy who was watching through a spotting scope saw what looked to him like a silver Frisbee flying to the left across the range. Turns out it was the flattened bullet catching the sun as it whirled away from the gong. It's flight was 90 degrees to the axis of the bullet. We finally found it and it was as big as a Silver Dollar. Still, a lot of it was splattered into the ground at the gong.

Actually, even if mounted solid a gong will absorb most of the energy of a soft lead bullet and not much bullet will be left. Of course if the round hits at an angle there's always a chance for a richochet. I worry more about the bullets that miss and richochet off of rocks and trees. But we have our range situated to obviate that problem.

 

[Titus]

Stumblin wolf

Ive got a 16mm steel plate which I use for my gong. Usually I put it at +130meters. What I have noticed with this plate is that the bullet doesnt ricochet at all, rather it literally "liquifies" upon impact and then splats sideways like a waterballon would do. Have also shot some FMJ 9mm rounds at it at 30m and recorded on video. on slomo you can see the same thing happening.

 

[paulvallandigham]

YOur plate is slightly more than 1/2 inch thick, but you don't tell use the length or width of it( or diameter). When you get a big enough piece of steel, it will do to lead balls and bullets what you have described, with little or no movement being seen by the plate. I shot modern high power rifle rounds at steel plates that were 2 inches thick, 20- x 30 ", and bolted to a 4 in I-beam, that was then fitted into a casing sunk into the ground. Moving these bang plates required four men. Most of the shooters were using .223 caliber rifles with FMJ bullets. They just tinked off. We shot the plates at various ranges out to 250 yds. with a .45-70 loaded with 350 grain bullets and
heavy powder charges that sent them over 2000 fps. We got a much louder " gong " sound off the plates, but the bullets flattened and sprayed out to the sides as you have described.

We are discussing using smaller plates that can be reasonably carried by one man into the woods, and hung from chains or cable in a gulley or ravine to provide a safe backstop for shooting. We use rebar to make the frame to hand the target from, and chain to connect the gong to the rebar. Tip the target a little forward so that the bullets begin to head into the ground at the base of the target, and you have the safest possible small target to shoot at with BP rifles. My club did have a socket wrench tool that someone discarded hung by cable from a tree branch at about 12 yards. It was a hard target to hit, but when you did, no matter what caliber of gun, or how little powder you used, that handle would be sent spinning in the air. We had it hanging in front of a particularly tall embankment for safety sake. Most shooters missed it, and the few hits achieved splatted as well as if the ball had hit armor plating. No harm or marks on the wrench handle even after a couple of years of use.

 

[spudnut]

Ive shot a few close ones 10 or 15 feet that made me nervous but no ill effects yet..I was shooting a brown bess :shocked2:

 

[coehornboy]

We have shot .75 cal table top cannons at 12" gongs that were 15 to 20 yards away. The gongs were made from plow discs that had a horizontal rebar hanger welded on and were suspended between 2 poles so that they could "swing" when hit. Soft lead balls flatten out like ravioli and drop within a few feet of the target...never one ricochet. :v

 

[paulvallandigham]

Coehornboy is correct. When you allow the gongs to swing from chains, ricochettes are almost eliminated, or perhaps its better to say, they are controlled and go into the ground. My earlier comments about hanging the gongs so they tip forward towards the shooter was intended to help you understand how best to control the ball bouncing off the gong.

BTW, a few years back, some new range officers decided to make new targets, and they had some experience shooting Metallic Silhouette targets at other ranges. So, they made some bang plate type targets, that stood on stand on logs, and RR ties. Almost immediately, members were complaining about seeing and hearing lead whining off into the woods around the targets. Since then, there has been a concerted effort to use only swinging bang plates, and to stay away from those that stand up ( and have to be put back up by the range officer after being shot down.)The new range officers found out just how much work is involved in putting those standing bang plates back up all the time. Swingers are the way to go: You can easily see if they are hit, by the movement, and you don't have to send someone down range to reset the targets.

 

[Titus]

paul, heres a pic of my gong. its 12"x12" and yes, a bit on the weighty side, but I carry the plate quite easily on my own.

 

[paulvallandigham]

The only thing I would recommend changing is to move the location where the chains attach to the gong from that top edge, to about 2 inches down. just weld a half link( two halves from one link do the trick for both sides) to give that gong a forward tip or tilt, and you will increase your safety margin immensely. I started with my BP club 30 years ago, and as a lawyer, they asked me to also serve them as an inspector to make sure they were not exposing the club to lawsuits through negligence. One area of concern was when they built temporary back stops, at locations where the club was asked to do shooting demonstations. We did a lot of those in the early days, and the Directors didn't want anyone hurt, or anything broken. At our home range, they wanted to use gongs to make scoring easier, particularly on rainy days, when it just was dangerous to be walking around on wet leaves in the mud. So, we worked with the gongs to control where the lead would bounce after hitting them.

We tried a number of different ways of attaching them. With smaller gongs, we found we had to add a " drag chain" at the bottom to help stop the swinging after a solid hit, for instance. The chain was made longer than the distance to the ground, and attached to the backside at the bottom of the gong. Its weight would help the gong return to vertical faster. if we left about 6 inches of chain to drag in the dirt. We tried using solid rod and "T " joints from plumbing pipe to let them spin over a smaller pipe frame, but the weld and joint broke after repeated hits to the gong. You will find that if the gong metal is too thin, you not only get buckling of the metal, but the vibrations will begin to crack the welds over time. We found this happened quickly when we used only 1/4" thick steel for our plates. Fine for .22 rimfire rounds, but not for ML rifle balls. Or centerfire pistol or revolver balls and bullets.
Hope this helps.

 

[Titus]

Paul, thanks. :hatsoff: :bow: I will definitely look into doing a few safety tweaks like that on the design. Was in a big hurry when I made it... :redface: so its a wee bit of a slapdash job.... :winking: :thumbsup:

 

[Halftail]

Don't a soft lead roundball just flatten out like a pancakeand drop to the ground when it hits a steel gong"?