How common were shorter barreled BP rifles?

[morehops]

I love my Lyman Deerstalker. Light, accurate reasonably good workmanship and accurate (did I say that again?).
Although it doesn't look PC, I was wondering if the old time makers produced a shorter version of their longrifles or Hawken style guns. I know there were coach guns and blunderbusses but these were pretty much scatter guns. Any of you BP history buffs seen or know of "carbines" built before the Civil War?

 

[Mike Brooks]

I'm not touching this one. I got kicked off the board last time this was discussed! :haha:

 

[tiger955]

In the fair amount of reading I have done (which is little compared to some members here I'm sure), I have never run across any that were common.
My reasoning is that powder quality was not always consistant back then, and the long barrels were desired to get the maximum velocity out of the minimum powder charge. The military powders were pretty consistant and decent quality and much of the carbine use was short range, but the early settlers often had to make do with what they had. I have read that they sometimes made their own powder and they sometimes needed to shoot longer ranges to put food on the families table.
I am sure some other, more knowledgeable, members can elaborate on this.

 

[gmww]

I wonder if the canoe gun fits this description. :hmm: I've seen canoe gun mentioned often for Underhammers but never really heard of what makes a canoe gun definition.

Also google blanket gun.

 

[Swtodd]

Mike Brooks knows alot about this, i was wanting his comments on the subject. There might be some that were modified later. No documentation for new or built rifles with short barrels. The short barrels on Trade Guns was about 30 inches and those wern't rifles. That is my limited understanding on the subject.

steve

 

[hanshi]

This is a difficult question to answer but I can relate what I observed at an exhibition at the Ga. Art Museum many years ago. The exhibit was (very) high grade muzzleloaders built in the state during the early 1800s and were almost all percussion.

By "high grade" I mean gold/silver/ivory inlays, exquisite metalwork, carving and woodwork, etc. These were not guns meant to be taken into the woods and that's probably why they survived in such pristine condition. Most, in fact, appeared unfired to my novice eye. I can't remember any of the names of builders attributed to the guns and some were anonymous.

I do not recall any with what we would describe as long barrels. There were also no 26" shorties I can remember, either. I'd say the average barrel length had to somewhere around 32" and certainly less than 36". Many appeared not much longer than the T/C offerings of the time.

The rifles were mainly half stock percussions of smaller calibers typical of the era. Quality wise, this was the single most impressive firearm display I've ever witnessed. There were dozens of the guns throughout the building.

While it cannot be stated that the barrel lengths represented the norm, I found it interesting they mostly tended toward shorter end of the scale. It wouldn't surprise me if rifles from other geographical areas averaged longer or even shorter. Definitely earlier guns would average quite a bit longer in general. But they exist just the same.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Not very common, IMHO. You see an occasional relic that has had its barrel shortened in the field someplace, but you don't have guns coming out of factories with very short barrels.

What we think of as a " Carbine" today would be a rifle with a barrel between 14-20 inches long. Some would even argue with me that I am making such barrels too long! You don't see a lot of Rifled barrels much before the French and Indian War( 1756-1763- the "Seven Years War")in this country. The industrial age made the making of rifled barrels much easier, and with the same exacting tolerances as achieved with the boring machines made to use by hand power. 1840 is generally considered to be the " dawn" of the Industrial Age, but of course, there were steady developments in machinery and manufacturing techniques that made all that possible, going back many years- at least to the first decade of the 19th century.

The word Carbine really comes from either Spanish or Italian- 'Carbinieri" who were horse back police and soldiers. Wars didn't stop in Europe just because Napolean was defeated at Waterloo in 1814. For rather obvious reasons, horse mounted soldiers found it easier to load shorter barreled guns in the saddle, than longer barreled guns. Before they got shorter barrels, they were merely mounted troops, who got to the battle quickly by horse, then dismounted and fought from the ground like any ground pounder before and since. That same tactic was in use in the beginning years of our own Civil War.

As to what length barrel was used, there is a big difference in opinion, and some factual differences between the flintlock era, and the newer percussion era. The 1855 and 1842 vintage muskets had shorter barrels than found on the old Brown Bess smooth bores, but they would not be considered a "carbine" by today's standards. When you get to the first Breechloaders, then, you begin to see shorter barreled RIFLES show up, manufactured that way. I am thinking of the 1859 Sharps, and the Spencer cartridge guns that showed up between 1861 and 1865. By today's standards, those weren't Carbines, either, but the barrels were a lot shorter than the Springfield, and Enfield Rifles used by the Infantry on both sides of the Civil War.

There are a lot of short barreled rifles being made today that aren't "Replicas" of anything made in the past. :shocked2: :hmm: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
Originally, carbine was actually more of a bore specification rather than a barrel length designation. Regardless, short barrelled rifles were made many of which we call jaegers today. In Europe, hunting rifles typically (but not always) had barrels much shorter than our long rifles.

dave

 

[Zonie]

The rifles shown in the book, "California Gunsmiths 1846-1900" come about as close to looking like the modern "Hawken" style rifles like your Lyman Deerstalker as any of the guns made in the 1800's.

Looking thru this book shows that almost all of the "hunting" rifles shown in this book have a barrel length that varies between 30" and 33".

The shortest I found has a 26 1/2" long barrel.

 

[gmww]

So were blanket guns and canoe guns something recent or was it something the gun owner did on their own? I was reading another forum that suggested the first blanket gun referred to a battle possibly at Fort Pitt or Detroit?

 

[Stumpkiller]

I had an exact copy of a carbine pattern of the 1758 Light Infantry musket. It was of 16 bore and had a relatively short 42" barrel. ;-) Some of the Highland Artillery units of that time received some with barrels as short as 36"!
http://books.google.com/books?id=-...onepage&q=1758 light infantry carbine&f=false

 

[Zonie]

I don't know about blanket guns but most of the people who study old guns agree that a "Canoe gun" is a modern invention.

No one to my knowledge has found records of new, very short guns that were designed and sold to be easy to carry and to use in a canoe.

That is not to say that there were not a lot of guns which had their barrels shortened to cut off damaged areas.
It was common to cut off a barrels breech and then re-breech it. Muzzles that were split were also cut off.

 

[gmww]

Thanks! :thumbsup:

 

[tiger955]

Not to hijack the thread but any thoughts on my reasoning of the reason for long barrels being due to inconsistant powder of the day and wanting to get the most from a minimal charges?
I have hunted many years in the eastern woods where longrifles were developed and surely appreciate the handling of a shorter rifle under those conditions.

 

[morehops]

Well I figured that 24-26" barrels were probably too short back then. I remember reading about inconsistent powder and a longer barrel required to get the the most ooommmph out of your charge.
I was using the term "carbine" in a comparative way. Heck, the Hawken style guns are carbines when you compare 'em to a Brown Bess or PA rifle with a 45" barrel.
I actually prefer a longer barreled gun like the hawken or plains rifle. I not only like the looks better but the longer sight radius helps my aim. Still, I find the shorty a lot of fun to shoot.
At least now I know that it really has no historical basis

 

[Swtodd]

Unless cut down later.

steve

 

[gordy]

Not being an "expert" on firearms history and development my [nformation is just what I.ve gleaned from reading and museum displays etc. I have several books in my own small library , and have had access to others in public and private librarys and can not recall of weapons with "short" barrels being "common". The modified guns as was stated were for the most part, modified from guns with barrels that started life as longer units.
As for the "canoe" and/or "blanket" guns were guns modified from guns with average long barreled weapons , most of these were smooth bore.
After all my ramblings , my answer to wether or not "short" barreled guns would have been "common" my opinion would be NO !
:hmm: :thumbsup:

 

[aeatwood]

One more thing that MIGHT be a factor. Optometrists were few and far between, and eyeglasses expensive. Getting the rear sight way out on a barrel makes it a bit easier for less than perfect eyes to focus.

 

[Coot]

Not to hijack the thread but any thoughts on my reasoning of the reason for long barrels being due to inconsistant powder of the day and wanting to get the most from a minimal charges?
I have hunted many years in the eastern woods where longrifles were developed and surely appreciate the handling of a shorter rifle under those conditions.

The eastern woods of today are not the same as the woods roamed by the longhunters in the 18th c. Back then the woods were a virgin climax forest with larger trees and less undergrowth than the 3rd or later generation forests of the 20th century. A visit to the Joyce Kilmer Preserve in western NC gives a hint as to earlier conditions. RE longer barrels (with smaller calibers), I have also read that they were developed in part to make more efficient use of powder which would be important on trips far from resupply.

 

[rafterob]

A couple advantages of long barrels are the sight radius and when you put a bayonnet on the end of it you have a nice lance.