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How many grains of FFg to use?

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Steve Martinez

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I am a newbie to muzzleloaders who has just bought a Pedersoli Kentucky pistol, flintlock, .54 caliber. The instructions that came in the box give no clue as to how much or what kind of load to use. The only information I have been able to find is in the Dixie Gun Works catalog entry for this pistol, which says to use 35 grains of FFg, a .530 round ball and an .015 patch.

All very good, but will this pistol also shoot .535 round balls with .010 patches? What is the range of powder loads that are safe to use? Is 20 grains too little? 40 grains unsafe? Is there a chart somewhere that gives this information for a number of pistols?
 
Steve: The 35 grain load Dixie suggests is a good starting place.
As for the minimum load, it must be enough powder to cover the vent hole. In other words, you don't want to use such a small amount of powder that the ball would cover the vent when it is rammed down the barrel. Just a wild guess would be somewhere around 25 grains for a minimum.

The .015 patch Dixie recommends might be a little tight for loading a pistol. On the other hand, Dixie says the bore is .540 with .006 deep grooves. This makes a groove diameter of .552.
A .530 diameter ball plus 2X .010 patch equals .550 which might be a little loose to seal the grooves off. It would load a lot easier than the .015 patch and if you shoot a pistol like I do, you will never know the difference in accuracy. :grin:

They don't say what gun they used, but in the Lyman BlackPowder manual they list 4 loads for a .54 cal X 8 inch barrel using FFg or FFFg black powder. For Goex FFg the loads and velocitys are:
35 grains =792 FPS
40 grains =843 FPS
45 grains =894 FPS
50 grains =939 FPS

As far as priming goes, you may hear that you need 4F powder but don't believe it. 3F works just as well and even 2F will work good enough for non life threatening needs.

As you may have read, most (if not all) of the substitute powders work either poorly or not at all in a Flintlock. Stick to real Black Powder. :)
 
Here is an excellent example of how to determine when using more powder is being inefficient. From 35 grains to 45 grains of powder in this .54 cal. pistol with its 8 inch barrel, you gain 50 fps for each increase of 5 grains of powder. But when you go from 45 to 50 grains, the gain drops to only 45 fps. This is a good indication that you have reached the maximum efficient load of powder for that gun, caliber, and barrel length.

Some of you may see pistols with longer barrels- ten, twelve, and even 14 inches long! It not only extends those front sights out further so old eyes can see them still, but it also allows burning of more powder, for higher velocities, which get the light weight balls to the target before the winds can move them. The added weight of the longer barrels also makes the gun more stable to hold on target, and helps keep the muzzle down when fired.

I don't know any single barrel pistol with any kind of length of barrel( excluding deringers) that is not bulky to carry. Why not let those barrels grow a little longer, and give you more velocity and better sight radius, and softer recoil? Carry the gun under your belt at your back and its out of the way, but quickly drawn when a shot presents itself.
 
I use, in my .44 cal (Peg. Kent.) a .440 ball with a .015 lubed patch & 17-20 grs ( out to 20 yds) I up the grs to 25 for 50 yd. shots. GOOD results.

My shooting partner uses 20grs (in his .54 etc.) He shoots quaters reg.

Those heavy loads are not ness. IMO

Puffer
 
Steve,
I built a long pistol in flint around a Getz 10 inch barrel. My smallest measure for it throws 18 grains, with no problems with ignition. I use 3fg Goex in it exclusively. 2fg just does not burn efficiently behind a roundball in a bore of less than .58, rifle or pistol, In my humble opinion. One bit of advice, from experience, the more you shoot a plow handled pistol the better you get with it. Just get it out once a year, and you might as well get it out once every five years, hee hee!
God bless.
volatpluvia
 
Paul, I'm sure you know this, but it is a mistake to expect an incremental increase in powder to produce a similar increase in velocity. In the first place, burning powder or anything else, releases ENERGY. Velocity is just one way shooters commonly express energy.
If you'll look at the energy figures for the example Zonie gave, you'll find that the first increase from 35-40 grains showed a gain from 309-350 ft.lb. or a gain of 41 ft.lb. for 5 grains of powder. The step from 45-50 grains upped the energy from 394 to 435 ft.lb. or an identical gain of 41 ft.lb. for a 5 grain increase in powder.
When evaluating load efficiency one needs to look at energy, especially in rifles with heavy bullets where a small increase in velocity represents a much larger increase in energy. :grin:
 
aBsolutely: But I wanted to use Zonie's data to tell folks how to use the data to learn something about the gun they are shooting. You and I understand that the weight of the ball or bullet has more to do with penetration of flesh and bone, than does velocity. As you increase the caliber of the gun, and its barrel length, you have to spend less time looking at velocities( altho' it is still important to determine the " Sweet spot" in your barrel's harmonics that will give a particular bullet or ball the best accuracy, and of course, there is no goo dreason to load lots of powder in your gun if it isn't going to give you any more velocity at the longest range you expect in a hunting situation,), and spend more time looking at retained energy at those ranges. Because a round ball loses so much velocity, its retained energy down range is related more to its mass, or weight, than to muzzle velocity. Muzzle velocity does relate strongly to recoil energy, the kind that busts your shoulder! My point is that if you pass the point where your gun is no longer efficiently delivering energy down range for the increase in the powder you put in it, you are gaining no more energy to transfer to the animal you shoot to help in making a quick and humane kill. The answer is not more powder. It is to shorten the maximum range at which you shoot the animal.

The guys who come to this sport from modern rifle and pistol shooting have a lot of ideas about killing deer and elk at long ranges. I just saw a TV show where someone was shooting a large Canadian Whitetail deer with a T/C muzzloader at 250 yds. This was the encore model, the single shot breakopen gun that comes with interchangeable barrels. I am sure he was using a rifle or pistol bullet, held in a sabot, fired over substitute powders at a much faster rate of twist that we use with Black Powder and PRB. I saw a picture of the shooter, and he had a huge scope on the gun, something else we general don't use with traditional muzzle loaders.

Now, I am sure he had practiced shooting at those long ranges. They claimed the shot was in woods, but I can't think of more than a couple of times in my life I could see that far in the woods, much less find a lane to take a clean shot at anything over 50 yds. They showed the killing shot on the tube, and it was a monster buck. One shot killed it quickly.

But, I think that has as much to do with muzzle loading hunting, as the man in the moon. I see and hear from men all the time that want a modern shotgun primer ( you know what I am talking about) gun, that shoots copper jacketed pistol bullets, over substitute powder, with a huge scope sight on the gun so they can hunt during muzzle loading season in their states. It is a muzzle loader, so I don't say anything. However, I only hope the attend the shooting ranges some time when those of us who shoot more traditional sidelock guns are also shooting, so they can see the difference. What concerns me the most is that where the shooting industry has generally be served by honest retailers, almost every one of these guys tells me things they were told by clerks in their favorite retail store about muzzle loaders, and if only half of what I have been told has actually be said by the clerks and owners, our business is being invaded by a bunch of crooks! Flintlocks won't fire; or percussion guns don't shoot as fast as these new blankety-blank guns; you can't get Black powder any more, so you have to shoot this stuff; flint- what is that?- and on and on.

Please, all, introduce yourselves to any new sporting goods stores- even wally world when it opens up near you- and give them your name and phone number to call to answer questions about muzzle loading guns. Lets at least try to overcome the lies, and deceptive practices we now see by some unscrupulous sellers to get the public to buy what they want, instead of what the customer wants, and needs.
 
Pedersoli barrels tend to be a little tight. I have a Pedersoli Kentucky in .50 cal. Dixie reccomends a .490 ball with a .015 patch. I couldn't get that one down the barrel on a bet. I found that a .010 patch works much better. You should have seen me trying to get that ball going with a short starter!
:rotf:
 
PAUL, YOU SAID IT ALL :hatsoff:

Thanks

One of my "activities" is that of a WA ST. Hunter Ed. Instructor. I head up the ML section during our Range cert. days. I have heard the "sales pitches" & then the complaints, when their inlines don't preform according to expectations. I always try to be "simpathetic, then I pick up my Ped. Mortimer .54 cal Flinter & after a couple of rounds down range, they start listening ( even made a few converts)

I also taught a ML course @ our State's state wide Intructor's semposium. Opened some "eyes on this very subject.

Puffer
 
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