How much powder?

[Stone]

Now that I have secured some 3F and 4F powder, I would like to start doing some shooting with this "abortion of a gun" I bought. The Traditions Pa. Pellet.

As soon as this 16 inches of snow is gone I plan to go to the range and play with my new toy and would like to get some suggestions on where to start as far as powder goes.


Let me provide as much info as I can.

1. This gun has a 1 - 28 twist
2. I will hunt as opposed to target shooting
3. I will be using modern conicals from CVA because that is what I have.
4. I will use Goex 4F for pan priming
5. I got one pound of 3F Goex and two pounds of Schuetzen 3F
6. Below is a drawing of my breech plug, the hole is approximately 1/8" diameter
7. I will hunt in situations where my possible shots can be anything from 30 yards to as far as the gun will effectively kill.

Questions:

1. What is a good starting point as far as the amount of powder?
2. Is there a threshold at which accuracy is lost as MV and energy go up?
3. From what I've read here, Goex 3F and Schuetzen 3F produce similar accuracy and fouling?
4. Last .... I do not have a chronograph but I would like to have a rough idea of MV so I can plug everything into my ballistics calculator. I have the bullet weight and the ballistic coefficient.

 

[hanshi]

Nothing wrong with starting at 60 grns and going up a little bit at a time.

 

[Johnny Tremain]

I use the Davenport Formula. It does NOT show you the best load, it shows you the most powder your rifle can burn out the barrel. You work your load backwards from there.
I use the max load for targets over 150 yards, I worked down until I got the tightest group.
For my 45 cal. 42 inch swamped barrel 74.5 (2033fps) is the most, and 55 gr (1660fps) is the best, so you see there is a big difference.

The formula is all over this forum.

 

[tdoyka]

my dad bought his abortion of a gun too. he tried pyrodex pellets, goex 4f and a modern conical from CVA and he found that hangfire should be the abortion's name. next time he fired it, i was there. he poured in 80gr of goex 2f and goex 4f was put into the pan. i heard the hangfire several times and i would say it went bang 3/10 of a second later.

my brother also got an abortion of a gun because of the breech. he says he could clean it faster, but i doubt it.

i can see the breech plug be can take a 209 or a percussion cap to "spark" your main charge. i can't see the flintlock doing the same thing. while the touch hole is where its supposed to be, the breech plug center hole is long (like about 1 1/4"). that, i think, is the cause of hangfire.


i told my dad to use his old flintlock muzzleloader (he built a tc hawkens 50 cal in '79-80) and maxiballs. it goes boom when its supposed to, not fizzz............boom like the abortion gun.

 

[Stone]

my dad bought his abortion of a gun too. he tried pyrodex pellets, goex 4f and a modern conical from CVA and he found that hangfire should be the abortion's name. next time he fired it, i was there. he poured in 80gr of goex 2f and goex 4f was put into the pan. i heard the hangfire several times and i would say it went bang 3/10 of a second later.

my brother also got an abortion of a gun because of the breech. he says he could clean it faster, but i doubt it.

i can see the breech plug be can take a 209 or a percussion cap to "spark" your main charge. i can't see the flintlock doing the same thing. while the touch hole is where its supposed to be, the breech plug center hole is long (like about 1 1/4"). that, i think, is the cause of hangfire.


i told my dad to use his old flintlock muzzleloader (he built a tc hawkens 50 cal in '79-80) and maxiballs. it goes boom when its supposed to, not fizzz............boom like the abortion gun.

I use 3F in the barrel so that it will get down in the breech hole.

I put 4F into the touch hole.

I have yet to have a hang fire or an undue delay.

 

[Stone]

I use the Davenport Formula. It does NOT show you the best load, it shows you the most powder your rifle can burn out the barrel. You work your load backwards from there.
I use the max load for targets over 150 yards, I worked down until I got the tightest group.
For my 45 cal. 42 inch swamped barrel 74.5 (2033fps) is the most, and 55 gr (1660fps) is the best, so you see there is a big difference.

The formula is all over this forum.

I wonder about the energy with 55 grains? Is it sufficient for a clean kill at 80 yards?

 

[Johnny Tremain]

At 1660fps Im darn sure it will do the smack down on deer. I use the 74.5 as a hunting load, and it does drop deer. I found it too hard to load the lesser charge in the cold. The full load fills my measuring device.
They used to smack buff down at 1450fps. A 45/70 will pernitrate 8ft of meat at 100 yards.
180gr muzzleloader vs a 430gr 45/70 is not a fair comparison.

 

[Sidney Smith]

I wonder about the energy with 55 grains? Is it sufficient for a clean kill at 80 yards?

During the Civil War, soldiers were routinely dumping 50 to 60 grain charges in their muskets. Granted, they were shooting very heavy minie balls, however with the heavy bullets, the enemy soldiers still fell. They didn't need to be going fast to do their job. A 55 grain charge with a 245 grain projectile will definitely have enough energy to kill a deer. I wouldn't be taking 100 yard plus shots, but at normal muzzleloading ranges of 50 to 75 yards, definitely.

 

[Les Harris]

The trick to avoiding hang fires in the PA pellet gun is to trickle a small amount of 4F into the touch hole and then prime the pan. It even says so in the instructions.

 

[tdoyka]

The trick to avoiding hang fires in the PA pellet gun is to trickle a small amount of 4F into the touch hole and teen prime the pan. It even says so in the instructions.

my dad does that, but it still hang fired.

on another note, my dad has drilled the breech plug out to fit his 2f. it still hang fires, but its more like fzizboom.

 

[Celt5494]

my dad does that, but it still hang fired.

on another note, my dad has drilled the breech plug out to fit his 2f. it still hang fires, but its more like fzizboom.

Maybe he is over filling the frizzen pan with too much powder? I like to keep the touch hole clear so when the frizzen pan ignites it goes straight through the touch hole hitting the main charge. I've found that by plugging up the touch hole I get a delayed shot like you are describing.

 

[CapPopper]

75-80 would be a good place to start. You're probably not going to be able to shoot over 100-125 yards with iron sights anyways so that will be plenty of powder. Really the most accurate load will be best. My .50 really likes a 360 minie and 100grs of 2f. But the recoil in a 5.5 pound gun is brutal doesn't matter hunting though. I can shoot 80grs comfortably all day. 65-80 of fffg should be plenty of power whatever is most accurate is what I would load.

 

[deerstalkert]

my dad does that, but it still hang fired.

on another note, my dad has drilled the breech plug out to fit his 2f. it still hang fires, but its more like fzizboom.

tdoyka, i am sure you mean the touch hole and not breech plug. that is assuming your father still has eyebrows and eyes.
i have had a few reluctant ignition guns, but have always found the way to tickle them just right to get good performance from them.
little tricks like slapping the stock to fill any funky flash channels. reducing or increasing the amount of prime. changing from one grade of prime to another. flint locks are like women.
you have to work at pleasing them, but when pleased they are a joy.

 

[tdoyka]

the touch hole stays the same, the long breech "hole" is drilled out a little bit more. if its going 1/2" breech hole, he will use 5/16" drill bit.

 

[Stone]

At 1660fps Im darn sure it will do the smack down on deer. I use the 74.5 as a hunting load, and it does drop deer. I found it too hard to load the lesser charge in the cold. The full load fills my measuring device.
They used to smack buff down at 1450fps. A 45/70 will pernitrate 8ft of meat at 100 yards.
180gr muzzleloader vs a 430gr 45/70 is not a fair comparison.

I think you mean 8 "inches" of meat right?

 

[Stone]

During the Civil War, soldiers were routinely dumping 50 to 60 grain charges in their muskets. Granted, they were shooting very heavy minie balls, however with the heavy bullets, the enemy soldiers still fell. They didn't need to be going fast to do their job. A 55 grain charge with a 245 grain projectile will definitely have enough energy to kill a deer. I wouldn't be taking 100 yard plus shots, but at normal muzzleloading ranges of 50 to 75 yards, definitely.

There is a lot of difference between a clean humane kill and knocking something down. I plugged these numbers (MV = 1500, BC = .161, 245 gr power belt) into my ballistics calculator and at 60 yards there is only 900 foot pounds of energy, at 80 yards there is only 835 foot pounds.

While 835 foot pounds is enough to humanely kill a deer, it requires a well placed shot, and that's not always a guarantee.

I certainly hope to find a load that will give me better energy than that or I may be wounding deer.

 

[smoothshooter]

Now that I have secured some 3F and 4F powder, I would like to start doing some shooting with this "abortion of a gun" I bought. The Traditions Pa. Pellet.

As soon as this 16 inches of snow is gone I plan to go to the range and play with my new toy and would like to get some suggestions on where to start as far as powder goes.


Let me provide as much info as I can.

1. This gun has a 1 - 28 twist
2. I will hunt as opposed to target shooting
3. I will be using 245 grain power belt bullets because that's what I happen to have.
4. I will use Goex 4F for pan priming
5. I got one pound of 3F Goex and two pounds of Schuetzen 3F
6. Below is a drawing of my breech plug, the hole is approximately 1/8" diameter
7. I will hunt in situations where my possible shots can be anything from 30 yards to as far as the gun will effectively kill.

View attachment 115608
Questions:

1. What is a good starting point as far as the amount of powder?
2. Is there a threshold at which accuracy is lost as MV and energy go up?
3. From what I've read here, Goex 3F and Schuetzen 3F produce similar accuracy and fouling?
4. Last .... I do not have a chronograph but I would like to have a rough idea of MV so I can plug everything into my ballistics calculator. I have the bullet weight and the ballistic coefficient.

I would have that Patent Breech chamber opened up to a quarter of an inch at least bu somebody that knows what they are doing, like Bobby Hoyt.
Patent breeches can be a PIA and are a poor idea for a gun that may need to be cleaned in the field because you cannot get a patch or brush in that skinny hole very well. And if you can, it’s just another implement you have to have with you.

 

[Stone]

I would have that Patent Breech chamber opened up to a quarter of an inch at least bu somebody that knows what they are doing, like Bobby Hoyt.
Patent breeches can be a PIA and are a poor idea for a gun that may need to be cleaned in the field because you cannot get a patch or brush in that skinny hole very good.

When I took my gun to a flintlock specialty shop, the owner told me the exact same thing. I will do that once the season calms down and they are not swamped.

 

[Johnny Tremain]

I think you mean 8 "inches" of meat right?

Dogumit, he changed his test and page
https://www.garrettcartridges.com/penetration.htmlNow he says 4.5 feet.

 

[cornstalk]

Garrett is the gold standard in 45-70 smokeless ammo. Just be careful that the gun you use is safe for the particular cartridge of Garrett’s you want to use.