How old is this knife no. 2

[Nativearizonan]

This one looks like a French chef's knife. I didn't think it was of interest for anything but the old steel, until I read some of the French imported knives that were traded into this country did look like chef's knifes, so I thought it was worth showing off. It has no markings other than a "K" roughly filed into the wooden handle on the left side. It is forged with a tapered tang, and also with a guard forged into the metal as one piece with the blade. The brass "rivets" are actually brass pins through round brass escutcheons on both sides.

I got this knife at an estate sale of a collector of western memorabilia, all kinds of stuff from rusty dusty mining equipment to tack to old guns and even 50's movie stuff and cap guns. This was sitting in a box with a price of 25 cents on it. It appears to have been very well made with complex forging and a high polish:

So, would it be historically correct for a hunter/trapper? and if so for who and for what period(s)?

 

[Nativearizonan]

The blade is 9 3/4", over all length is 14 3/4". The width is 1 7/8" at the widest point.

 

[George]

I have a knife like that. Mine is a French kitchen knife bought about 1970. It has the name "SABATIER", four stars and an elephant stamped into the handle. The scale is not wood but some composition made to look like wood, in other words, plastic.





Spence

 

[Nativearizonan]

I have a knife like that. Mine is a French kitchen knife bought about 1970. It has the name "SABATIER", four stars and an elephant stamped into the handle. The scale is not wood but some composition made to look like wood, in other words, plastic.

Spence

That could have fooled me, the photo looks like wood. Mine appears to be rosewood, and well aged. I looked up Sabatier, and they have actually been made by a bunch of people who use the same name, that goes back at least to 1834, as does this knife design. I don't know if they developed the chef's knife or not, but it appears the design is an old one from Thiers, France, and it hasn't changed much in at least 180 years or so. Some knife styles are timeless, I guess.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabatier

 

[Stophel]

I'd guess '20's or maybe '30's. Could go earlier or later, of course. :idunno: Typical Chef's/cook's knife design which seems to go back to the late 19th century at least.

A week or so ago, I almost bought a German one, probably near 1900 maybe, for 20 bucks, but I passed, since I couldn't think of a use I'd have for it.

I have seen one of these types of knives (with a "rat tail" tang) for sale on an internet site that was rehandled with antler that they were trying to sell as an 18th century Scottish dagger...

 

[Nativearizonan]

I guess there are two separate questions, one is how old is this knife? which will probably never be answered because there is no identifying stamps or numbers on it; the other would be how old could it pass for, as in how old is the style and technique that it was made? I'm thinking it may go back to at least 1830s

I have another chef's knife with the same blade profile, but it is made from flat stock and has no forged guard or tapered tang, just a flat carbon knife with wooden scales that also has no markings on it whatsoever. I'm thinking it may date to the 1920s-50s although since it has no brand or country stamped on it, it may even be a little older, but very cheap.

 

[blacksmith123]

1840s maybe

 

[Rifleman1776]

Definately a chef (style) knife. I also have a Sabatier. My most frequently used kitchen knife.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I think the rivets may indicate post WWI era. I believe smaller rivets were common as late as 1908 - 1910.

LD

 

[Nativearizonan]

I think the rivets may indicate post WWI era. I believe smaller rivets were common as late as 1908 - 1910.

LD

There seems to me to be a distinct difference between the rivets on my knife and modern knife rivets. If you look at the top picture of my knife on my first post of this thread you can plainly see the pin surrounded by what looks like a round brass escutcheon. The other side looks the same, with the pin in the center plainly visible. I have not seen modern knife rivets that look like that, especially not on both sides of the knife.

I found this description of the sabatier knife:

The SABATIER knife is a professional knife for the use of butchers, cooks and "chefs". It is distinguished by its triangular blade, 15 to 35 cm long, with a bolster or bolster and ferrule, with a full or half tang on which is fitted a black handle. Once made out of ebony, this is now plastic and finishes with a bird's beak pommel. The handle is fixed in position by three tubular rivets that replace the nails and rosettes of a hundred years ago.

http://www.sabatier.com/gb/ancetres/forme.html

I think the attachment means in question could be described as "nails and rosettes" which I would call pins and escutcheons. They do not look like modern tubular cutlery rivets, which generally are smooth on both sides when finished.

This distinction may be at the heart of the argument over some paintings of period people who carried knives that look to have riveted handles.

 

[Nativearizonan]

On the rosette vs escutcheon description, we usually think of a rosette as looking flower like, with petals and/or engraving, but I found in many senses it's just a round trim. There is also the issue of translation, as the site I posted was originally written in French. Look at this search of a chinese site:
http://www.alibaba.com/showroom/escutcheon-rosette.html

The similarity between a pin, as we call it, and a nail, is obvious.