How would you folks fix this?

[Pittsburghunter]

I got a POS shotgun for $25 that looks to have never been fired but has sat around forever and was very cheap to begin with. My first project with this gun is to make the lock spark and it looks like I have my work cut out to me.

As you can see the hammer is so close to the frizzen I can't even have a flint in the jaws. It also looks like the frizzen was never hardened so I ask you kind folks to help me make this cheap lock spark :grin:

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Is that the half cock or full cock position? And you need a cock retaining screw. Is that an empty screw hole behind the cock? Might be some parts missing.

 

[Pittsburghunter]

I have the screw. I just removed the hammer and put it back on afterward to make sure there was no problem with the mount. The hole is there because the lockplate screws are removed. I just set the lock back in the stock to make it easy to take a picture.

Oh, sorry it is at half cock in the picture.

 

[Roy]

I would just considering replacing the lock. Looks like part of the frizzen is missing, you know the bit that touches the spring.

 

[Pittsburghunter]

Roy everything is there this is how it was made :grin: Like I said I want to make this lock spark.

I looked around earlier but I don't want to spend 5X what I paid for the gun on a lock. besides, where is your sense of adventure?

 

[rabjr]

Can't ya soften the frizzen, bend it, reharden it and then adjust the angle of the cock to get it to spark right?

 

[Pittsburghunter]

I have thought of that because it looks like it needs to be hardened anyway but I do not want to screw up the strike angle so I am wondering if I need to bend the hammer back some as well or instead?

 

[blacksmithshoppe]

I would not heat bend the angle of the cock or the frizzen, I have welded up the hole in the cock and re-cut the hole so the cock was back further from the frizzen. This keep all the working angles "inline". You can try to re-harden the frizzen but in the end you may be better off to just replace the lock, it looks like their is plenty of wood around it so you can fit a larger one.
Jeff

 

[Birddog6]

To be quite honest, I don't think anything ya did to that lock could hurt it.

However, I would be mostly concerned of the barrel safety. There are some guns I have seen such as what this appears to be, that were made for "Display Only" and not intended to be fired, thus why the lock is designed as such. And the barrels of these shotguns sometimes are merely soft thin tubing & not safe to fire........

I think great caution is needed here on this one. :shake:

 

[BEP]

Photos sure are wonderful things. I got an average flint (keeping in mind that they do vary) and held it up to my computer screen, as if it was in your lock. Then I used a protractor to measure what the flint angle is to the frizzen, flint bevel-down. I got somewhere around 40 degrees. So the frizzen could be bent back some to get the more desirable 60 degree angle. It's impossible to know what the real ratio of size of the actual lock to the image on my monitor, but it looked like the 20 degree correction would move the frizzen from the hammer about the thickness of the frizzen where the top jaw touches it. If you are particular in flint selection, you should be able to fit one to a corrected lock/frizzen.

I've bent frizzens to improve impact angle as part of the casehardening process; at 1600 degrees (salmon color) they aren't hard to bend this amount safely.

Not sure that this would heal the lock, though. There are still several unknowns such as mainspring strength, frizzen spring tension, and others. But it would be a start, and that frizzen probably needs both hardening and bending anyway. Good luck.

sneezy

 

[Pittsburghunter]

I agree Birddog but this is the first time I can say I am happy to have a barrel proofmarked. I have the gun completely torn down right now and the barrel is the best part of it. Swamped barrel that I think is 20ga. Well made of modern steel.

 

[Roy]

Oop's again lol, took a better look Sorry about that (don't know where my adventure went :redface: ). Maybe you could just replace the hammer? Case harden the frizzen and Bobs your uncle. :grin:

 

[J.D.]

I wouldn't bend the frizzen, but the cock does need bending. Those double throat cocks are a real pain as they come from the factory. Nearly every one that I've seen needs to be cut through the front of the throat and bent down to improve the angle of contact between the flint and frizzen, then rewelded.

The throat area appears to be large enough to enlarge the hole for jaw screw clearance, then cut the web in front for bending and rewelding.

The frizzen is probably made of soft, mild steel that will require case hardening or a half sole.

New cocks and frizzens of the right size can probably be bought from Track of the Wolf fairly inexpensively. They need holes drilled and hardening, but parts for many locks are available.

This lock CAN be made into a workable lock, depending on how much time, money, and effort you are prepared to invest.

Most of that investment in time will entail learing new skills, such as making, hardening and tempering springs, case hardening, welding, brazing, lock geometry, and no telling what else.

That said, when you get this lock functioning, you will have the skills to tune any lock you might acquire. You may also acquire the skills to build locks from scratch.

This learning curve will also entail an investment in DVDs, books, and probably a GOOD quality lock for study.

All in all, you will probably spend more money on materials to learn the skills necessary to rebuild this lock than it would cost to replace it. However, you will also acquire knowlege that no one can take away from you.

How about a photo of the inside of the assembled lock?
J.D.

 

[Birddog6]

Well, safety is the main concern..... You can mess with a lock & fixed or not, that is not a real issue, you have $ 25. in it all & no big loss. But when it comes to barrels & especially thin ones made of cheap tubing, well, then I start to get real nervous....... Since I didn't see what you are working with, I felt it best to warn ya of such things & the dangers involved in them & I am glad your barrel is not one of these.

If it is a proof marked barrel & all, one would think it would be worthy of a test run should you be able to get the lock to work.

Good Luck ! :thumbsup:

 

[JiminTexas]

Pittsburghunter, I posted to this very same topic just the other day (See New guy with questions in this forum). It's too bad that the hammer is afixed to a square shaft. If the end of that shaft had been a spline, then this wouldn't be a problem at all. It would be a simple matter of slipping it over one or two notches on the spline in order to ge the proper clearance.

 

[Mike Brooks]

I'd sell it and not waste my time. Chances are somebody would be willing to give you more than $25 for it. Part it out on Ebay, I've seen people pay top dollar for absolute junk there. :youcrazy:

 

That lock has so many things wrong with it, that it's not worth trying to learn anything trying to make it work. The wood is that cheap Spanish/Itallian kindling thats not worth the effort either. If the barrels O.K. then build a fowler around that, and throw the rest away. Just because the barrels showing proof marks, from the looks of that lock the marks might just be cosmetic show, for a display wallhanger. I would definately pull the breech plug, and inspect the breech, and proof that barrel before using it. Think about it. Whoever built that gun, knows nothing about lock building, which makes me think they also know nothing about barrel building. Just my thoughts.

Bill

 

[J.D.]

That lock has so many things wrong with it, that it's not worth trying to learn anything trying to make it work. The wood is that cheap Spanish/Itallian kindling thats not worth the effort either. If the barrels O.K. then build a fowler around that, and throw the rest away. I would definately pull the breech plug, and inspect the breech, and proof that barrel before using it. Think about it. Whoever built that gun, knows nothing about lock building, which makes me think they also know nothing about barrel building. Just my thoughts.

Bill

There is a lot of wisdom in Bills' post.

I would very definately unbreech the barrel and inspect the bore, threads, and fit of the plug. Especially check the fit of the plug and the condition of the threads.

I would then proof the barrel with double the expected load and double ball by tightly securing the barrel to a 2X4, with about a 12" length of 2X4 screwed down tight to the "carriage", behind the barrel, to prevent the barrel separating from the 2X4 under the recoil of that heavy load.

Place the breech end of the barrel/2X4 assembly into a tire, preferably one placed in a ditch, tie everyting down SECURELY, and touch 'er off with cannon fuse.

I would suggest marking the barrel every coupla inches and micing those locations prior to proofing this barrel. Remeasure those exact locations, and if there is any enlargement of those dimentions, indicating a bulge, that barrel is not safe to fire...given that the barrel is intact after proofing. :winking:

It might be a good idea to have the barrel X-rayed to check for internal flaws after proofing.

That said, I have learned a TON from making decent locks from old, poor quality locks. However, I don't think ever I began with a lock that poorly made.
J.D.

 

[BEP]

Okay. There have been a lot of viewpoints and some good tips on this thread so far. Here's my overall take on the subject.

Why not try to get the lock to function? You've been given a lot of suggestions to improve it. If you're not familiar with the techniques discussed, PM some folks for a few insights. Or do a "search" on anything you have doubts on. Or ask outright.

But making this lock function could be fun if you like challenges. And it's never going to be a "silk purse". But that doesn't mean that it's doomed to be a "sow's ear" forever either. What have you got to lose? You've only got 25 bucks invested, for crying out loud. That's a real inexpensive learning opportunity. And, as someone else pointed out, even if you don't succeed, you could certainly get more than that for the barrel and stock on eBay.

And you will learn and doubtlessly enjoy in the process.

P.S. I thought the proofing suggestions that J.D. gave were good advice.

sneezy

 

[Pittsburghunter]

You guys are all right. The ting is as I posted in the first thread this is a POS that I just want to make shoot mostly for fun. It can be used for 4th of July reports for all I care. Yes, it will be self proofed as well, not with double .50cal balls but with a single ball and 100g of powder. It is a shotgun barrel it is not made to take a double load.

As far as the stock goes it will be fine for what this gun is. Looks like the same wood my Missouri rifle is made of.

So far I think the idea of a new hammer is the best place to start because as you can tell by the picture it looks like bending the hammer is not an option.