Hypothetical question re: flintlock and Alliant Black MZ

[Ben K]

Purely hypothetical, just asking to increase my knowledge should I decide to get a flintlock at some future stage.

Can you use it in the pan of a flintlock?

I heard it might be too course.

Can I crush it, a small amount at a time, using a wooden rolling pin and a wooden chopping board?

Thanks for the education.

Kind regards,

Ben

 

[azmntman]

nothin but real bp in the pan. Only use subs in flintlock if ya start about 10 grains real black before the main charge then 777 or pyro or what have ya

 

[Billnpatti]

I have never used Alliant Black MZ but of the several substitutes for black powder that I have used, none are suitable for use in a flintlock. The only exception to this statement is if one were to use a substitute in a duplex load. That is when one loads about 10 grains of real black powder in the bore first and then adds one of the substittute powders on top. It can be made to work that way. The problem is that all of the substitutes with which I am familiar have a higher ignition temperature than real black powder. This makes them harder to ignite. This difference in ignition temperatures makes them very unreliable in a flintlock. Even if one were to grind the grains of a substitute powder into a finer form, it won't change the ignition temperature and the ignition temperature is the problem in using any substitute in a flintlock. If you want to use a flintlock, you are going to have to get your hands on some real black powder, both for the pan and for the main charge. Sorry, but that is just the way it is.

 

[coloradoclyde]

I've done it and ignition is inconsistent.
Black MZ is very hygroscopic that's why there is a desiccant packet in the can. Crushing the powder for the pan only slightly increases ignitability, but greatly increases the hygroscopic nature..
Even with 4f in the pan and MZ in the barrel ignition isn't great.

The real stuff works the best.

 

[BrownBear]

Can I crush it, a small amount at a time, using a wooden rolling pin and a wooden chopping board?

No hypothetical about it. It's not a question of grain size, but ignition temperature. It just takes more heat than a spark to set it off reliably. Real black is a whole nuther matter.

A bud up here experimented with it quite a bit because getting real black is a serious challenge. He got about 1 ignition in 3 or 4 tries, and that was real slow. His next step was to try mixing his ground stuff half and half with 4f Goex. That worked better, but was only about 90% reliable. And often slower in setting off the main charge. He said he could live with it if he really had too. But at 3 grains per pan charge, it's not worth the trouble if you have even a little 4f hanging around. Better to just go ahead and use the 4f without diluting.

 

[robinsroost]

I tried 777 in a 3Fg grain load and it didn't work. I had to try 5 times to set it off. Robin :td:

 

[galamb]

If you read closely, the blurb about MZ on the Alliant website a few things will become clear.

Although they do not come right out and say it, this stuff was designed for (bleep) non-side hammer muzzle loading guns that have IN and LINE in their description/name.

"works best with 90 grains of powder" "heavily compressed" under 50 cal (bleep) - plastic wrapped pistol bullets that start with SAY and end with BOW

does not exactly instill confidence that this stuff was even considered in a side hammer percussion pushing a round ball (which could at least use a mag primer or be refit to pop a 209), much less a flinter

 

[Zonie]

As the original question was about using Black MZ in the pan on a flintlock, my answer is no. It won't work in the pan.

At least, it won't work like the priming powder is supposed to work.

As others have mentioned, the synthetic powders have a higher ignition temperature requirement to get them to burn.
The small sparks off of the frizzen are less likely to ignite it.

Real black powder, when placed in the pan not only lights easily from the frizzens sparks but when it does, it almost instantly explodes with a "POOF!". That fast explosion is the reason black powder is classified as an explosive.

That quick explosion sends out a burning flame front that can easily enter the vent hole to ignite the main powder charge.

Black MZ, Pyrodex, 777 and what have you all burn rapidly when they are contained in the bore of a gun but laying out in the open with nothing around them except air they all burn rather slowly.

If you want to try it, pour a teaspoon sized pile on a flat surface and light it with a match.

Rather than the "POOF!" of real black powder, the substitutes light with a "Whooooooooooosh", noticeably slower than black powder.

That slow "Whooooooooooosh" does not send out a rapidly moving flame front, so, although it burns for a longer period of time, it is very unlikely to penetrate the vent hole and light the main powder charge.
On the off chance the main charge does fire, the slow speed of the pan flash and firing of the charge will almost certainly ruin the aim of the gun.

As for ignition speed using Pyrodex as a main powder charge, once, by mistake, I loaded one of my flintlocks with it.
I primed the pan with real black powder and it exploded almost instantly after the flint hit the steel. The main charge didn't fire.
Repriming the pan the next attempt also refused to fire.
The third attempt did fire the gun but it was noticabely slower.
It was only on reloading that I noticed that I was using the wrong flask with the Pyrodex in it.

 

[Ben K]

Fellows, thank you so very much! The education I can receive here is absolutely incredible. Thank you again.

Well, I will just have to try harder to scrounge some. I'll have a word with my mate, whose folks are pretty savvy about this game and are driving up to visit later in the year - see if we can work something out.

Cheers!

 

[coloradoclyde]

Black MZ is a fantastic powder for other applications....Flintlock just isn't one of them... :v

 

[nkbj]

How many have tried a duplex charge of black under a substitute and black in the pan?

I've always been leery of trying duplex loading because of knowing that inconsistent burning creates unpredictable waves.

 

[coloradoclyde]

If I have to start buying and carrying two different powders to make my muzzleloader fire.....I'm switching to center fire :grin:


That's where I draw the line. :youcrazy: .

 

[Newtire]

How many have tried a duplex charge of black under a substitute and black in the pan?

I've always been leery of trying duplex loading because of knowing that inconsistent burning creates unpredictable waves.

I have tried that and yes, it goes poof, ka.......wham! I did it yesterday with a Pedersoli trade gun in 20 gauge/.62. It was a delayed ignition and gobs of goo (as someone previously mentioned). This was using 10 gr. 2f under 50 gr. Black MZ and 4f priming in the pan. Tried Black MZ by itself as the main charge and 4f but it didn't go off. Just my experience yesterday.

 

[azmntman]

I used to shoot duplex all the time (with triple 7). NEVER any goo? Not sure where thats coming from? It works just fine for me.

 

[Herb]

Alliant Black MZ was a really good powder, now no longer available. It worked very well in flintlocks as several here have posted, requiring real black powder as a priming charge and a 5 or 10 grain booster first in the bore. Here is a 24" Green River barrel that was made as a short Leman and went through a fire. I rebuilt it and had the rusted bore rebored to .58 by Bobby Hoyt. These targets are powder comparisons of weight- corrected measured charges. (Left click should call up the original for a better image. Otherwise hit CONTROL and + to enlarge).

This last rifle is a .58 caliber Hawken I built. I used the Triple 7 and Alliant Black MZ only in testing, but with proper technique those powders are entirely reliable in a flintlock. I would trust them for elk hunting. Let not anyone start a rant about how they only use real black powder. There are shooters in Hawaii and Alaska that find it nearly impossible to get black powder, and they and many others need to know how these substitute powders can be made to work. Thanks to those who have the courage to say so and have done it here.

 

[curator]

Yes, "duplexing" with a small kicker of real black powder first down the barrel then the substitute powders will work. You will still need to prime with real black powder. This will allow someone who has very limited access to real black powder to stretch their meager supplies. Of course, if you switch to a matchlock, you can use substitute powder in both main charge and pan. I have used Pyrocr@p, Clear-shot, and Triple seven in my two matchlock muskets with excellent results. (well, maybe a wee bit slow ignition compared to the real thing) I am experimenting on using Ferrocerium "fire-stix" in my wheel lock to see if I can get ignition on substitutes. While promising, still not as reliable as real black powder despite the high heat of the Firestix sparks.

 

[Newtire]

I used to shoot duplex all the time (with triple 7). NEVER any goo? Not sure where thats coming from? It works just fine for me.

May have left some "Barricade" in the bore as I forgot to bring a proper wiping rod and improvised a paper towel wrapped around a brush of smaller diameter and held on with rubber bands I found in the car. So maybe that formed the goo?

 

[Newtire]

Yes, "duplexing" with a small kicker of real black powder first down the barrel then the substitute powders will work. You will still need to prime with real black powder. This will allow someone who has very limited access to real black powder to stretch their meager supplies. Of course, if you switch to a matchlock, you can use substitute powder in both main charge and pan. I have used Pyrocr@p, Clear-shot, and Triple seven in my two matchlock muskets with excellent results. (well, maybe a wee bit slow ignition compared to the real thing) I am experimenting on using Ferrocerium "fire-stix" in my wheel lock to see if I can get ignition on substitutes. While promising, still not as reliable as real black powder despite the high heat of the Firestix sparks.

Pardon Curator, what are and where can one get the "firestix" you mentioned. Might come in handy one day. One never knows.

 

[curator]

Pardon Curator, what are and where can one get the "firestix" you mentioned. Might come in handy one day. One never knows.

Newtire: I bought the Ferrocerium rods from "Firesteel". They have several sizes and lengths. https://firesteel.com/

 

[user 34300]

A net search revealed that Buffalo arms now ships BP to Alaska.
https://www.buffaloarms.com/black-powder-info