I am in the process of assisting a widow in disposing of her late husband’s firearms. I am having difficulty discerning what brand this handgun is. The only marks I find include, “Black Powder Only”, “RG”, & “PN”. Any help will be appreciated.
Identification help request
- Thread starter kmorris
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It's an 1858 Remington reproduction (Italian made), the PN is the Italian Black Powder proof. Might be an EIG (1970s) make. What's the serial number?
Not coming up with anything. Are there any other markings? Any other at all that you haven't listed?
The XXX indicates the pistol was proof tested in 1974.
Out of curiosity, is this a .36, or a .44 caliber gun? If it isn't marked on the gun, a .36 caliber bore would be just a tad smaller than 3/8 of an inch. A .44 would be 7/16 of an inch.
Out of curiosity, is this a .36, or a .44 caliber gun? If it isn't marked on the gun, a .36 caliber bore would be just a tad smaller than 3/8 of an inch. A .44 would be 7/16 of an inch.
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I'm betting that with '36' stamped crisply into the barrel that it's a .36cal.
This link is very helpful - http://acwsa.org/Documents/MBPProofmarks.pdf
This link is very helpful - http://acwsa.org/Documents/MBPProofmarks.pdf
On the frame, the first is the Gardone proof mark, Gardone is a proofing house. The middle one I can't make out the symbol or lettering in the box.
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PN = Polvore Nero - black powder.
On the butt strap I thought I saw another stamp to the right of the numbers. Unfortunately the pictures aren't close enough for these older eyes to make out.
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Dunno, sorry. I've plumb run out of ideas. It does NOT look like a professional job of engraving to me, and there is no brand that I can find that has a stylised set of letters RAG.
I don't know who built it but if your interested, the pistol you have is a reproduction of the Remington-Beals Navy Model Revolver.
Speaking of the original gun, the Remington-Beals was the first attempt by Remington to sell the gun that was designed and patented in 1858, by Fordyce Beals.
Remington sold both the .44 caliber Army and the .36 caliber Navy to the military but they weren't very happy with several of its features.
The major problem comes from the way the front frame area is designed. It did not scrape the powder fouling off of the rotating cylinder so, after a few shots were fired, the pistol would tend to jam.
To fix this problem, Remington redesigned the area so that the frame had additional clearance in front of the cylinder and the barrel threads extend thru the frame with the breech of the barrel ending just ahead of the cylinder face. This allows the sharp edges of the barrel threads to scrape the fouling off of the front of the cylinder as it revolves. Remington named this version, the Remington New Model Army and New Model Navy.
The difference between the old Remington Beals and the Remington New Army or Navy can be seen in this photo that shows both.
The reproductions of the Remington-Beals were made back in the 1970's and the Italian companies quit making them around 1980.
That makes your pistol rather unique and to someone interested in history, it might be worth a bit more than the run of the mill Remington New Army or Navy being made today. On the other hand, a person who is interested primarily in shooting his pistol may say it is worth less because like the original, it will tend to foul up when it is shot repeatedly.
As your new to this, Col. Colt is the one who decided to name his .36 caliber, 1851 pistol a "Navy". Some speculate it was done to try to sell the smaller caliber guns to the Navy. The Army had already made it clear they wanted a .44 caliber pistol because it was more likely to bring down a horse. The Navy didn't need to shoot horses.
Anyway, the "Navy" nomenclature stuck and soon all of the pistol makers making a .36 caliber revolver started calling their pistols "Navy caliber".
Speaking of the original gun, the Remington-Beals was the first attempt by Remington to sell the gun that was designed and patented in 1858, by Fordyce Beals.
Remington sold both the .44 caliber Army and the .36 caliber Navy to the military but they weren't very happy with several of its features.
The major problem comes from the way the front frame area is designed. It did not scrape the powder fouling off of the rotating cylinder so, after a few shots were fired, the pistol would tend to jam.
To fix this problem, Remington redesigned the area so that the frame had additional clearance in front of the cylinder and the barrel threads extend thru the frame with the breech of the barrel ending just ahead of the cylinder face. This allows the sharp edges of the barrel threads to scrape the fouling off of the front of the cylinder as it revolves. Remington named this version, the Remington New Model Army and New Model Navy.
The difference between the old Remington Beals and the Remington New Army or Navy can be seen in this photo that shows both.
The reproductions of the Remington-Beals were made back in the 1970's and the Italian companies quit making them around 1980.
That makes your pistol rather unique and to someone interested in history, it might be worth a bit more than the run of the mill Remington New Army or Navy being made today. On the other hand, a person who is interested primarily in shooting his pistol may say it is worth less because like the original, it will tend to foul up when it is shot repeatedly.
As your new to this, Col. Colt is the one who decided to name his .36 caliber, 1851 pistol a "Navy". Some speculate it was done to try to sell the smaller caliber guns to the Navy. The Army had already made it clear they wanted a .44 caliber pistol because it was more likely to bring down a horse. The Navy didn't need to shoot horses.
Anyway, the "Navy" nomenclature stuck and soon all of the pistol makers making a .36 caliber revolver started calling their pistols "Navy caliber".
From what I can make out it almost looks like it could be a DGG which would make it a San Paolo or Euroarms who bought out San Paolo, Euroarms was later bought by Pedersoli.
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sourdough
40 Cal
RigArmi [Rino Galesi Armi (RAG), Industria Rino Galesi, Brescia, Italy]. The logo is a stylized set of the original letters RAG , the Founder's initial R and G arranged higher than Armi's A slightly below and between the other 2 letters. It was a small obsure Italian manufacturer in Northern Italy. There is no source for parts.
They also made parts for C.O.M. Gardone V.T., an association of Italian manufacturers who jointly produced revolvers for the European market and maybe for the international market, in the period of the 1970'-80's when demand was strong enough to require a significant production of low-end products, allowing it to manufacture in different workshops the different parts of each weapon assembled under a single brand, not allowing of the original manufacturer and possible harm to its reputation.
This is a RigArmi Colt 1860 Army.
Regards,
Jim
Thanks, actually didn't know about RAG, now I do. Looks like his is a reproduction of the Remington-Beals 1858 Navy model.
What I'm seeing is the new Piettas and Ubertis going for around $300, can't say what this one might go for.
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I suspect $250 might be a reasonable asking price. It may be sort of an orphan as far as parts go, but also may have a smaller frame as a 36 compared to the newer Pietta 36s that used the same size frame as their 44. I'm not an appraiser or an expert. The smaller frame would be more historically correct.
sourdough
40 Cal
To be honest, what you have is an "1858" (a misnomer) Remington NMN (New Model Navy) .36. It was manufactured by RigArmi, an obscure Italian manufacturer in 1974. Replacement parts are not available for it, but folks have used Uberti/Pietta modern CNC-machined parts and have been somewhat successful at fitting those parts to older Italian revolvers like Armi San Marco, Armi San Paolo, older Uberti & Pietta guns.
Your revolver, for its age, is in fairly good shape externally. I have not seen what the internals look like: back in the day some owners shot them, did not clean them internally, and after the "new" wore off just put them away in a closet.
It might look like a Pietta 1851 Navy I acquired about a year ago for a very good price. (It cleaned up very well with a lot of elbow grease.)
It does have a slight bolt drag line on the cylinder (meaning that the bolt nose is too high while being retracted when the hammer is cocked and the cylinder rotates. The stop-slots indicate that the bolt drops early but is not too wide for the slots.
Having said that, if you took it to a LGS (local gun shop) they most probably would not know what they were looking at, would only want it to sell at profit to a customer who most likely had no clue, and would probably only offer dimes on the dollar. I would bet that they would only offer about $75 for it.
To a collector who is looking for such a revolver, the selling price would be about twice as high or more, but that entails presenting it to a large audience online, via GunBroker or another site. You would have to put it up for auction and/or state a "buy-it-now" price of your choosing.
I am a moderator on the Black Powder Revolver Collecting Forum The Black Powder Revolver Collecting Forum - Index and this question comes up all of the time with many various revolvers.
You might want to become a member on the 1858 Remington Forum which is primarily concerned with those revolvers and post a classified ad. The 1858 Remington Forum - Index
Due to the current pandemic, Uberti and Pietta are not producing revolvers for market anywhere near pre-pandemic levels, and that is causing a drought in the market, and any available guns from them are going for a premium. That would be good news for you and other private sellers.
If it was my revolver, I would put it up for auction on GB (penny auction) with a starting bid of $190 plus shipping at 10 cent increments with no reserve for 10 days, with no returns. Then, sit back and watch what happens.
Just my $.02 worth.
Regards,
Jim
Your revolver, for its age, is in fairly good shape externally. I have not seen what the internals look like: back in the day some owners shot them, did not clean them internally, and after the "new" wore off just put them away in a closet.
It might look like a Pietta 1851 Navy I acquired about a year ago for a very good price. (It cleaned up very well with a lot of elbow grease.)
It does have a slight bolt drag line on the cylinder (meaning that the bolt nose is too high while being retracted when the hammer is cocked and the cylinder rotates. The stop-slots indicate that the bolt drops early but is not too wide for the slots.
Having said that, if you took it to a LGS (local gun shop) they most probably would not know what they were looking at, would only want it to sell at profit to a customer who most likely had no clue, and would probably only offer dimes on the dollar. I would bet that they would only offer about $75 for it.
To a collector who is looking for such a revolver, the selling price would be about twice as high or more, but that entails presenting it to a large audience online, via GunBroker or another site. You would have to put it up for auction and/or state a "buy-it-now" price of your choosing.
I am a moderator on the Black Powder Revolver Collecting Forum The Black Powder Revolver Collecting Forum - Index and this question comes up all of the time with many various revolvers.
You might want to become a member on the 1858 Remington Forum which is primarily concerned with those revolvers and post a classified ad. The 1858 Remington Forum - Index
Due to the current pandemic, Uberti and Pietta are not producing revolvers for market anywhere near pre-pandemic levels, and that is causing a drought in the market, and any available guns from them are going for a premium. That would be good news for you and other private sellers.
If it was my revolver, I would put it up for auction on GB (penny auction) with a starting bid of $190 plus shipping at 10 cent increments with no reserve for 10 days, with no returns. Then, sit back and watch what happens.
Just my $.02 worth.
Regards,
Jim
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