Identification of flintlock pistol - help needed - updated

[sharkeye]

Hi
I recently bought an old flintlock pistol from an online auctionhouse. I hoped that when I got it home I would be able to identify what it actually is and how old it is, but my knowledge is more limited than I thought. I can also not find any hallmarks at all on it.
I would really appreciate if anyone could help me determine age, region of maufacture and if it´s an old flintlock at all and not some wall-piece or recent Indian product...
The good pictures are from the auction-house and the not so good is from after I dissasembled it somewhat.

Many thanks in advance
Matthias

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
This one is hard because the stock is clearly European (Dutch, Belgian, or French) inspired but the workmanship is very crude. I wonder if it is a Turkish or Balkan made attempt at a typical European horse pistol? Are there any proof marks on the barrel or marks on the lock?

dave

 

[sharkeye]

Hi Dave
Thank you for your answer. I can´t find any markings at all, that´s part of the reason to why I took it apart, maybe something was hidden somewhere...
Is it possible to say anything about the value of it. I got a little carried away (as always...) and paid about $1000 for it, but that seems to be approximately what similar guns go for in Sweden. But i do have 14 days to return it...I´m debating with myself whether to keep it or not...

In what way is it crudely put together? I´m a total novice at firearms, my expertise lies in pocket watches from the 18th century with much smaller parts... I bought it on impulse because I´ve always wanted an old 18th century flintlock pistol, and I thought i looked really nice :grin:

/Matthias

 

[cynthialee]

I think it is someone's project from a few years ago. My opinion...the lock is the only old part on the gun. The inletting on the wood is sloppy. A real deal or a proper counterfeit from someone with skills would have better inletting. The brass work is sloppy and looks like someone both polished it after they tried to age it.
The stain on the pistol appears to be a modern stain and the wood has no age patina.
Maybe the barrel is old, but I ain't sure...the engraving looks like a first year apprentice made it, not like it came from a reputable gun maker of the era. If a old world master was handed that gun by his apprentice I think it would have been rejected out of hand.

I am not an expert. Just my opinion.

 

[Many Klatch]

The engraving is crude, the parts are probably worth about $300. It's too shiny to be old. Send it back.

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
Below are photos of guns I built to copy 18th century European (in this case English) styles. The first shows what would be considered average engraving on a second-quality gun. The second gun is what you would expect for a high-end gun from the 18th century. The photos clarify why I suggest your pistol is crudely decorated. Another possibility is it might be the product of a rural Scandinavian maker, but the shape of the frizzen and its grooves along with the crude decoration makes me think Mediterranean, possibly Turkish.

dave

 

[sharkeye]

Those guns you built are really nice Dave!

Thank you all for your opinions of the gun, I really appreciate it!
You´ve made me doubt it enough to call the auctionhouse next week and request that they take it back.

I´ll have to put my pirate-dreams on hold for a while and stick with the old watches for now

/Matthias

 

[hawkeye2]

The stock appears (to me) to be rosewood and I'm going to say that based on the quality of the workmanship, specially the engraving, that it is a modern piece made in India and not an antique.

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
Here is what I think you have.
http://www.ambroseantiques.com/mideast/1830turkey.htm

dave

 

[sharkeye]

Thank you hawkeye2.

In comparison, this is what I usually deal with, and I guess in hindsight I should´ve expected a good gunsmith from the same era to put the same workmanship in one of his guns as the watchmakers put in their watches...

 

[sharkeye]

The look very like each other...but could the valuation be correct? $1375 seems a lot for a turkish 1820 flintlock?

I´ll probably return it anyway...a 19th-century turkish flintlock isn´t really what I was looking for.

 

[dave_person]

Hi Sharkeye,
The value is what the buyer is willing to pay. I believe there is a demand for Turkish and Mediterranean guns but you have to find the right buyers. If yours is an antique, which I think it is, it was extensively cleaned and polished. In many collectors circles that lowers the value because original marks and evidence of its history may be lost. I think the custom in Europe is a little different and guns are typically cleaned and polished more aggressively than is the custom in the US.

dave

 

[Zonie]

Just some thoughts about the pistol:

The crusty looking areas around the engraving/carving on the butt cap looks like the remains of a sand casting that wasn't cleaned up.
(Real parts like this are totally engraved/carved.)

The threads on the screw that clamps the top jaw look like they were either rolled or cast.
Neither of these methods would exist on a real flintlock pistol.

The engraving on the trigger guard looks very much like the kind that is done in India or one of the neighboring countries.
The design of the engraving on the TG also looks like something that was done to just fill in the area with lines.
Definitely poor quality and nothing like the engraving that would have been done in Europe.

The wood on the grip is flush with or stands proud of the metal parts.
Old guns always show signs of the wood laying either flush or below the metal parts because over time, the wood shrinks leaving the metal parts standing proud.

If this pistol had been bought as a decorator for maybe $300-$400 I would say keep it if you like it.

For the amount paid, return it and get your money back.

 

[tenngun]

The first real interest in antique guns started about 1850. And that lead to a market in fake antiques. And also a use of old military arms reworked to look like fine private pieces. A whole cottage industry in French North Africa grew up making guns for the antique trade in west Europe.

 

[hawkeye2]

Quite true tenngun and I was fortunate to be able to handle a number of them in a private collection while in Poland a couple of weeks ago. They were well done, looked every day of 150 years old and could have easily fooled the uninitiated.