Identify this proof mark?

[Fritz423]

Howdy, I'm new to the forum and to antique firearms. I recently came into possession of a number of percussion rifles but several have me stumped. I don't know all the terminology but this rifle has no markings except the following. I'll test this then try more.

I can't find the origin of this proof mark/maker's mark.

 

[Fritz423]

 

[Fritz423]

Thanks for any help you can give, I'm stumbling in the dark here...

 

[TFoley]

Your Lorenz rifled musket was made in Austria, by one of any number of subcontractors to the Austro-Hungarian Empire. The double-headed eagle is the stamp of proof, probably Vienna.

The Lorenz rifled musket was the third most-used long-arm in your recent civil war -

The Union recorded purchases of 226,924 and the Confederacy bought as many as 100,000. Confederate-bought Lorenz rifles saw heavy use in the Army of Tennessee in 1863-64, with many of them being issued to re-equip regiments captured at the Siege of Vicksburg and later exchanged. On the Union side, continental European firearms were mostly distributed to the Western armies, as such, the Lorenz Rifle was relatively uncommon in the Army of the Potomac (although two regiments of the famous Iron Brigade carried them) but heavily used by the Army of the Cumberland and Army of Tennessee.

The quality of Lorenz rifles during the Civil War was not consistent. Some were considered to be of the finest quality (particularly ones from the Vienna Arsenal), and were sometimes praised as being superior to the Enfield; others, especially those in later purchases from private contractors, were described as horrible in both design and condition. Many of these poorer-quality weapons were swapped out on the battlefield for the British Enfield or the American Springfield rifle-muskets whenever these were available. A fair number of Lorenz rifles had also been used in the 1859 conflict with France and were worn and not in pristine condition when they reached the United States.

Lorenz rifles in the Civil War were generally used with .54 caliber cartridges designed for the Model 1841 "Mississippi" rifle. These differed from the cartridges manufactured in Austria and may have contributed to the unreliability of the weapons. Many of the rifles were bored out to .58 caliber to accommodate standard Springfield rifle ammunition, which also created problems as the Lorenz was designed to fire a solid base bullet instead of the hollow base Minie ball. The sights on the gun also were not measured in the English measuring units used in the United States but a different German measurement system; as such, this made it difficult for soldiers to aim and fire them accurately. Improper cleaning of the rifles also may have contributed to problems. Although Austrian army manuals described proper usage and maintenance of Lorenz rifles, none of them were translated into English.

The original Model 1854 Lorenz rifle was replaced in the Austrian army by an improved Model 1862 variant; these were used in the Austro-Prussian War.

Muzzle-loading Lorenz rifles were the main Austrian weapon during the Austro-Prussian War where the Prussian Needle-gun [Zundnagelgewehr] generally outclassed them.

Your rifle is a very fine example of the type, and here in UK would fetch a serious amount of money - in the USA, it is still a very collectable piece. You can see an original and the new Pedersoli replica being shot on Youtube by Bálasz Néméth - AKA capandball - a site that I wholeheartedly commend to you.

 

[Fritz423]

Thank you sir. I can see I have a lot to learn.

 

[TFoley]

We all start somewhere.

And welcome to the best muzzleloading site on the interweb.

 

[Fritz423]

With that information i was able to find an identical proof mark on (as you pointed out) a lorenz rifle made in vienna in 1861. Apparrently mine is 1860 "type I".
I thought the arrow mark was an assembly key but now I wonder if it is a maker's mark?
https://www.collegehillarsenal.com/shop/product.php?printable=Y&productid=1046

 

[TFoley]

Probably is. As I noted, there was no single arsenal for the Lorenz muskets and rifle muskets. Like British military arms before the Royal Small Arms Factory opened at Enfield Lock, Austro-Hungarian arms were 'kit-built' from components made by many small ateliéres. Not being an expert on AH firearms, I'm betting that the eventual Royal Arsenal ended up in Graz. As I understand it from watching capandball, your gun was superceded by one with a superior backsight, among other minor details. Guns like yours with the fixed sight and in the original .54cal [metric ~14mm] initially went to the Confederacy, as did a supply of 600000 cartridges of common ball and more of buck and ball, made in Austria and Englandby the Eley Brother's factory. The later, superior sighted versions, were acquired by the North as ~14mm, and bored out to .58cal.

What is the calibre of YOUR rifle?

Quote -

Collectors have long felt that the guns that were most likely to have seen Confederate use were the ones with .54 bores and the block, or fixed rear sight. Federal gun were thought to have been mostly re-bored to .58 and to have had the long range rear sight. While it does appear the Confederacy favored the guns in their original .547 bore, there is no indication that they only bought fixed sight guns. Additionally, Federal Ordnance returns shows that thousands of .54 Lorenz rifle muskets were purchased and used by the US government.

 

[Fritz423]

Crudely measured the ID at muzzle is 14 mm. Definitely under .5 inch. And with a date of 1860 I'm guessing it would not have been made for export, rather accepted into service in Austria then later exported?

PS this has been very helpful. I have a few other items for which I plan to seek assistance and I do appreciate your knowledge.

 

[TFoley]

Crudely measured the ID at muzzle is 14 mm. Definitely under .5 inch. And with a date of 1860 I'm guessing it would not have been made for export, rather accepted into service in Austria then later exported?

PS this has been very helpful. I have a few other items for which I plan to seek assistance and I do appreciate your knowledge.

As I wrote above, your Lorenz rifle was exported from Austria to the Confederacy during the Civil War. Since the war did not start until 1861, it must therefore have been floating around somewhere in an Austrian arsenal awaiting distribution somewhere. Along come representatives from the Confederate States of America with good American gold dollars and the deal is done. It was not made for export - none of them were - but money, especially gold, has its own vocabulary.

And BTW, It is no use measuring a metric barrel and thinking in English measurements. It was made, as ALL European military arms were/are, in metric dimensions. The Lorenz rifle musket had some pretty loose acceptance dimensions that would have been laughed at by the British and American gun makers of the day. The bore was acceptable between 13.8 and 14.5mm..........precision it wasn't. That barrel you showed us would have been scrap iron in Enfield or Springfield. Appalling craftsmanship TBH.

 

[Fritz423]

As I wrote above, your Lorenz rifle was exported from Austria to the Confederacy during the Civil War. Since the war did not start until 1861, it must therefore have been floating around somewhere in an Austrian arsenal awaiting distribution somewhere. Along come representatives from the Confederate States of America with good American gold dollars and the deal is done. It was not made for export - none of them were - but money, especially gold, has its own vocabulary.

And BTW, It is no use measuring a metric barrel and thinking in English measurements. It was made, as ALL European military arms were/are, in metric dimensions. The Lorenz rifle musket had some pretty loose acceptance dimensions that would have been laughed at by the British and American gun makers of the day. The bore was acceptable between 13.8 and 14.5mm..........precision it wasn't. That barrel you showed us would have been scrap iron in Enfield or Springfield. Appalling craftsmanship TBH.

I hope I'm not pestering, but does the fact that the rifle was NOT bored out to .54 imply that it was probably a confederate rifle? The last owner left no record of how he acquired it, in fact family did not know he owned the collection. It was found in his "gun closet."

 

[TFoley]

I hope I'm not pestering, but does the fact that the rifle was NOT bored out to .54 imply that it was probably a confederate rifle? The last owner left no record of how he acquired it, in fact family did not know he owned the collection. It was found in his "gun closet."

Nossir, not pestering. The site is, I'm sure, benefitting from our little exchange and having the opportunity to see an honest-to-goodness rifle that is a 99.999% cert to have been in the hands of a soldier in the WoNA. And yes, he is more than likely to have been a Confederate.

 

[Fritz423]

WoNA=war of northern aggression? I like it! But to be fair my ancestors (Fredericksburg, Texas or close enough) tried to abstain from the war. Damned pacifists...

 

[TFoley]

WoNA=war of northern aggression? I like it! But to be fair my ancestors (Fredericksburg, Texas or close enough) tried to abstain from the war. Damned pacifists...

I have to admit to a slight bias here - the sum total of my interference with US politics to date - as my family bought Confederate Bonds at the time. The story goes that upon learning of the events that took place at Appomattox, my great-great grandmother used them to light the kitchen fire.

 

[Le Loup]

Howdy, I'm new to the forum and to antique firearms. I recently came into possession of a number of percussion rifles but several have me stumped. I don't know all the terminology but this rifle has no markings except the following. I'll test this then try more.

I can't find the origin of this proof mark/maker's mark.

Keith.

 

[Fritz423]

Thank you sir

 

[Fritz423]

I popped back into the forum to have a derringer from the same estate looked at, and wanted to thank you guys for being so free with your knowledge and experience. Since COVID is about done it's time to get these on the market and I could not have done it without you.

 

[TFoley]

Those of us who know, tell.

Those of us who don't know, ask.