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Ignition speed

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ntech

36 Cal.
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I'am using a DP AN IX.During shooting I notice small delay (about 0,5 s.) between ignition and shot.I have seen in many flintlock rifles that shot is immediately with ignition.I'm using 3F black powder for load and priming the pan.I don't compress to much load in barrel but I leave small amount of additional air inside.Can you advice me how to obtain faster ignition?
You can see this delay on my small video which I made: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VehNFInfK8
Thanks for any advice! :bow:
 
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I don't compress to much load in barrel but I leave small amount of additional air inside.

Not sure what to make of that, you should make sure the ball is loaded on top of the powder charge. Are you covering the vent with the prime? Or making sure the priming charge is below the vent?

Great video btw! :thumbsup:
 
Sebastian: You have to be shooting a tuned flintlock to speed that ignition. In addition there are some basics that will help. Don't cover the venthole into the barrel with priming powder. Since the heat from any flame rises, put some distance UNDER the vent hole between the priming powder and the hole. I like to have my vent located .030" ABOVE a line across the top of the pan. That allows me to fill the pan and level it with any straight edge, giving maximum opportunity for the sparks to start the burning, while letting the heat rise and enter the vent.

The other thing that is a MUST DO, before priming your pan is to use a vent pick to open a hole in the main charge in the barrel, through the vent, so that the heat burns more than just the nearest one or two granules of powder. Ignition should sound like " kBOOM!" , rather than, "Klatch-FittttBOOM!"

On the truly fast, well-tuned locks, the priming powder has ignited and HAS begun to ignite the main charge before the cock comes down to rest. There is not any time for the vibrations from the falling cock to disturb the shooters sight picture before the ball is out the barrel.

If you go to the top of the index page to this forum, you will find " Member Resources". Scroll down to " articles, charts, and links". Click on Articles and it takes you to a table of contents that lists a number of articles. The second one down is on Shooting and Tuning Flintlocks. It will give you valuable information to help you find any problems you are having with your lock, that are causing it to be " slow ". If you have questions on the article, or need some advice on your particular lock, PM me. I will be glad to help. Then go back and read the other articles. They are all good information, and worth your time.
 
A couple of the pictures showed pretty quick ignition. There seems to be a variation in the speed from shot to shot. This leads me to believe that consistent procedures might bring all shots up to the same speed, as: Do you prime the same amount each time? Do you place the prime in the same place in the pan each time? Do you pick the vent each time? Do you treat the bore the same each time? (Lots of opinions here, I am asking about consistency from shot to shot) If all is the same, then I pass you on to more knowledgeable helpers, Good smoke, Ron
 
Seems that I've read this article about flintlock shooting.But what about compresing powder?Should I do it or not?
Maybe I make mistake in priming.Usually I don't measure powder on pan but just put it "on eye" just enough to prevent covering touch hole.Of course during loading charge I use vent pick.
Thank you for respond.
 
I would seat the ball on the powder no extra airspace is needed or desired. I push the ball until I feel it seat on the powder. I do not apply a lot of extra pressure after that. Do not clog the touch hole with the prime. A pan about 2/3 full of prime works great for me.
 
I would start playing with the amount of primer you are using. Start with as little as possible and add more until you get consistant ignition.
 
Must agree with others. Do not leave any space between powder and ball. This could cause your barrel to bulge or even burst. That would ruin your day! I use only a small amount of primer and knock to the far side of the pan. One thing I did to increase reliability and speed was to drill the touch hole a little bigger. Make sure the powder from your main charge is reaching your touch hole. Just a thought.
 
DO NOT compress powder in a flintlock. Tip your barrel to the side, so that the powder slides down the barrel, rather than Drops down the barrel, like in a drop tube. Seat the ball on the powder- no measureable air gap-- but DON'T compress it. While chemically, Black Powder supplies its own Oxygen to burn, using the coarser granulation of powder, such as FFg Goex vs. FFFg Goex in a flintlock, leaves more air between the granules, and just as pumping air into a forge fire will raise the temperature of the heat produced by coal, coke, and even wood, leaving more air in the powder charge helps to quickly raise the temperature and Pressure in the powder chamber and promote quicker burning, and MORE COMPLETE BURNING.

I also recommend using a filler, or an OP wad over the powder, so that you can increase the consistency of the burning of the powder. The inertia of the fillers, or wad, also delay the movement of the PRB, giving more time for both temperature and pressure to rise before the LENGTH OF THE BURNING CHAMBER is lengthened by the forward movement of the ball, reducing chamber pressure quickly, and also reducing temperature, and producing those incomplete burns that leaves more noticeable crud in the residue.

The use of fillers and OP wads also allows you to use a smaller ball, and thicker patch material, to hold more grease, and make it much easier to load the PRB down your barrel, since the needed seal for the gases produced by the burning powder charge are held back by the OP wad or filler.

The lubed patch can be relieved of that duty, risking less tearing or burning, while it imparts spin to the ball from the rifling, centers the ball in the barrel, and greases the barrel as the ball is being seated, and after its fired, and is exiting.

You should be noticing by now that getting consistent performance of any PRB depends on a lot of factors, all of which affect the coefficient of friction of that patch and the barrel. One of the reason that traditional RB barrels had slow ROTs, even when a faster rate of twist can still shoot a RB accurately, is because the slower ROT is much more foregiving of inconsistent velocities, resulting from slightly greater, or lesser powder charges, indifferent cleaning between shots, differences in the amount of Lube on the patch, any slight difference in the diameter of the cast RB, etc. The faster the rate of twist, the more consistent everything has to be about your load, and your loading and cleaning procedures to get the highest, consistent, degree of accuracy with a PRB. This kind of accuracy is rarely needed in hunting conditions, or when shooting off-hand. There are too many other human-induced factors that affect the ability of any shooter to shoot small groups with any rifle and PRB at long distances. But, for the sniper, the bench rest target shooter, all this IS important. Its not going to hurt a hunter's success if he follows all the care taken by target shooters in loading, cleaning and firing his gun at game. It will hurt the sniper, and the target shooter if they are as lax about loading and cleaning as some hunters are. Snipers are primarily killed by other snipers- counter-snipers. Missing any target as a sniper is a fast ticket to losing your own life.

NO member of this forum is going to be a sniper, using a BP traditional Mler, and PRB, but we have plenty of target shooters here, for whom a miss of as little as a hundredth of an inch means the difference between winning and losing a match they have prepared for all year long! Just attend a " Chunk Gun " match some time, and see how the targets are scored, and what the difference is between first and second place. It will amaze you.


Then, watch the shooters load, clean and fire their rifles. If you clean your gun as meticulously as do the best shooters, and if you pay attention to your components, and loading procedures as much as the best shooters do, you won't go wrong shooting your gun, whether at targets, informal plinking, or hunting that monster buck.

Best regards.

Paul
 
Sabastian,
I am quite certain that the air space is the main cause of your ignition delay. For the other reasons stated, bulged barrel or burst barrel, seat the ball down on the powder. Shot to shot variation on your compression of the powder can give you a variation in velocity of your ball or bullet. However, unlike Paul's experience, I have found heavy compression causes a louder blast at the muzzle. I don't have a chronograph so I don't know if there is a faster velocity to accompiany the extra blast. I do know that heavy compression causes a cleaner burn, so I don't think air space between the granules of powder cause a quicker igniton. Rather it causes a slower ignition. As I have said before, gun powder, black or modern needs no atmospheric oxygen to burn as claimed, it already has all the oxygen it needs.
volatpluvia
 
Paul, I agree with MOST of what you wrote; however I do believe a SLIGHT amount of compression is not harmful to ignition. I just seat the ball FIRMLY on the powder, no bouncing or pounding of the ramrod, etc. and I have fast ignition. You can feel the ball seating on the powder with just a slight crunching.
 
The key to ignition speed is more likely related to your vent liner or lack of one. You did not mention the type and size of the liner or if you have one.
The speed of ignition and pressure on the main charge in a flint lock is usually not a problem. That is provided the ball is seated firmly on the charge.
The right vent is most important. I would go to a stainless vent such as the Chambers Lighting Vent. Then find how much powder the gun likes in the pan. You may also check to see if your vent is cut right to fit the inside of the barrel. When you push the jag to the bottom does the patch or jag catch. The too long vent liners can cause a stall in firing also.
As someone mentioned don't cover the vent hole with powder. :thumbsup:
 
I'm with Emery on this one. I seat the ball against the powder until I feel crunching, then I stop. Not compressed, but not loose either. I haven't been shooting flinter long, but after following advice from this forum, my Austin & Halleck fires off very quickly for an untuned lock. About 1/2 pan of prime, banked away from the hole, and it is quite consistent. Now if only I was! :haha:
 
As long as you don't pour the powder down the barrel with the barrel vertical, so the barrel becomes a drop tube, the powder is not going to " compress ". I "Feel" my ball crunch powder when I seat it the first time I am working up a load, and then mark my range rod so I load to the mark thereafter. I do not leave an air space between the powder and the PRB. However, I don't try to compress the ball or seat it " firmly " as I used to do with my percussion guns. The Chronograph indicates that my " touch the powder " technique gives a small SDV, although velocity is a little less. The velocity issue can be solved by adding a few more grains of powder to the charge.

With percussion ignition, Use FFFg powder, and hold the barrel vertical when you pour the powder in the muzzle. That makes the barrel a " drop tube", so that gravity compresses and packs the powder together. With percussion caps, and that semi-closed ignition chamber, flame is actually INJECTED into the compacted powder, to ignite the powder quickly. That is as it should be for consistent burning, and pressure build-up, before the PRB begins moving forward.

Again, as with Flintlocks, most percussion calibers are aided with the use of either an OP Wad or Filler, as they not only seal the gases, but they delay the movement of the PRB foreward for a few millicesconds, and that allows the pressure to build higher, and the temperature to build up so that the powder burns completely leaving very little residue.

As your caliber increases in diameter, the weight of the ball also increases, and the need for a OP Wad or filler to create consistent velocities seems to lessen. I am still working with my .62 caliber smoothbore, and I have not yet done the before and after testing with OP wads, or fillers, and just a PRB. I have a gunsmith friend who owns a .62 cal. rifle, so I want to see what difference are occuring with the rifle vs. smoothbore, too.

In small caliber flintlocks, (.40 and smaller) you use much less powder, but the size of the chamber behind the ball is made less by both the smaller powder charge, AND the caliber. I find using FFFg powder in these guns either flint or percussion, to work just fine, but using an OP Wad does benefit consistent velocity production here even more so than in the middle calibers(.45,.50 & .54). That is because the weight of the ball being fired is so small, it offers little resistance to the building pressure, especially in percussion guns, where the percussion cap alone is sufficient to move the ball up the barrel.

You do need to use a chronograph to learn these things, and if you are not a target shooter, you won't get the benefit of all of them. I followed all kinds of " rules of Thumb" before I owned a chronograph, and even then, did not begin to use the Chronograph to challenge long-used practices until I stumbled onto differences in performance based on changing one thing or another. My brother has been using his chronograph extensively when shooting his .40 caliber rifles( and a .28 caliber gun!), and that is what alerted me to differences with smaller caliber rifles.

However, the changes in how you load your gun will help you in both getting that Ball where you want it to go on that rare long shot while hunting, and the benefits for cleaning the gun are worth the effort. YOu have enough problems just trying to adjust your cleaning process to the weather ( Temperature and Humidity) depending on where you live, and where you shoot, and what God has decided to visit upon you on a given day. And, what works when you load the gun at dawn may not do so well at Noon!

When the switch was made from Black Powder, to Smokeless powder, people thought, " Now, we have a One size fits all ", situation with firearms, and we won't have to spend so much time cleaning guns to keep them shooting accurately.

Wrong!

Tell that to the veterans of the Early years in Vietnam, when the new M-16s were not even provided with cleaning kits, and the powder used in the new cartridges in the chambers that were NOT chromed, were causing the guns to jam in the middle of firefights.

My point is that mankind has been seeking that KISS solution to making guns shoot since the first gun was made, and things haven't changed. Part of the deal with shooting traditional rifles is learning how to keep them functioning in all kinds of weather.

The stuff I am discussing here is what I think of as " Set-up" issues,- choice of powder, choice of OP Wad, or loose filler, choice of ball diameter for a given caliber and dimension, choice of patch thickness to use with that diameter ball, and choice of lube to use. Once those decisions are made, you forget about them. Its not something you have to do every time you go shooting.( When you get older, it helps if you write down the powder charge, ball diameter, patch thickness, lube choice, etc. for each of your guns, so you don't have to re-invent the wheel when you shoot a gun for the first time, 5 or 10 years after you last shot it!)

I am always looking for, and reading my patches, after each shot- a habit from the days when I didn't have a chronograph. I look for them in the woods when I shoot a deer, too. I read those spent patches, and put them in a pocket to take the trash out of the woods, or off the range.

I read the cleaning patches I use to tell me how wet or dry the barrel and residue is, so I can adjust my cleaning procedures a bit.

I pay attention to wind direction, temperature, and relative humidity- now based on those cleaning patches and how slick and damp the residue appears, and feels to my fingers when I pull that first cleaning patch out the barrel. Watching the Wind direction is a habit I have used for years hunting, but here in the Midwest- a change from the prevailing wind direction for a given time of year tells me that the weather is going to change- getting either wetter, or dryer( and colder).

Since MLer shooting is basically a one shot deal, these changes in loading and cleaning procedures that require a bit more time to do are NO handicap. That seems to be the hardest adjustment for new MLers to make when they have prior experience with Breechloaders, only.

It seems everyone wants to find a way to shoot a second shot faster. I was there, too, until I watched one of our club members shooting a Leonard Day Swivel Breech rifle, and watched my pocket watch to see how fast he got the second barrel turned, and the shot fired. He was only a bit faster than some of the members who were loading using premeasured charges and a Ball block.

When I was deer hunting in a treestand the next Fall, I use my watch to time the movement of deer who were within sight, but behind too much brush to get a clean shot, and found that even browsing, most deer would be gone before even that swivel breech rifle could give a second shot.


Once you have crossed into the Dark Side of Flintock shooting, IMHO, you have accepted all the challenges BP shooting has to offer. You understand that this is a One Shot, One Kill hunting sport, and that "speed of loading" and firing is not used in the same sentence as Flintlock.

Yes, you can surprise each other with how fast you can load the rifle( especially using a bare ball), and get it to fire, but you probably won't be surprising anyone with how accurate a long range shot you can make loading your gun fast.
 
I would like to thank all of you!I found that shooting the flintlock musket is hardest way in muzzleloaders world.After your replies I have lot of to think and to do during my next visit on range.Off course I will inform you about any of my progress.Best regards! ;)
 
Your friend with the Day swivel breech was either taking his time or a klutz. I can fire the second shot from my swivel breech without lowering the rifle from my shoulder. The time taken is barely more than what would be needed for a second shot from a bolt action rifle. :v
 
I am sure Harold Logan was taking his time. He had a matched set of Day Swivel Breech Rifles, one each in flint and Percussion. He was retired, and had no reason to hurry up about anything. He was an inexperienced flintlock shooter. So, he took his time to cock the hammer back, and then took his time turning the barrel so that he didn't spill the priming powder out of the frizzen.

I believe his second shot was fired about 20 seconds after the first, and that is a long time to expect a deer to let you take a second shot, IMHO. I am sure your experience is different. More power to you. :thumbsup:
 
The priming powder in the unfired pan is held in place by the closed frizzen. The rifle can be carried all day long with one barrel upside down and not lose any prime--it is designed to do so. Without getting into double barreled side by sides, a swivel breech gives about as fast a second shot as any muzzleloader can. Where legal they make a fine hunting rifle.
 
MY friend, Harold, was concerned about accidentally knocking his frizzen open as he turned the barrel. Everything else you say is true, of course. Such an accident is much more likely the faster you try to do the movement, without having practiced hundreds of times in slow motion.
 
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