I'm so confused (and I'm new here).

[wolfe28]

Hey there;

I'm not exactly new at this muzzleloading thing, but I am. I first shot a muzzloader about 17 years ago, but that was only once, and I just got a TC New Englander about 1.5 months ago. So I'm new to it (and having a great time, probably more fun than most of my conventional guns). The problem I am having is with the appropriate charge for my gun.

I have heard that you should start with a charge equal to the muzzle diameter (.50 cal = 50 grain charge) and then work up from there for the most accurate load that does what you want. So, after doing a lot of cleaning on the gun I bought for $50.00, I took it out to the range for some trigger time and load development. I started with a Hornady .490 round ball, a denim patch, TC Boar Butter for patch lube, 50 grains of Goex FFFG, and CCI #11 caps. The gun went boom, as expected, and man was I having fun; but a fairly scattered group at 25 yards. Upping the charge to 60 grains (an me settling down some, lets face it, I was excited). This gives me a 1 hole group at 25 yards, and I'm going to be taking this gun out further next time I go to the range.

So here is my problem. The folks at TC said that 60 grains of FFFG should be fine, and my results show that it shoots fairly well, but I see a lot of info about folks having target loads of 80 grains of FFFG in a .40 cal rifle, or 75-90 grains in a .50 cal rifle, all behind a patched round ball (PRB). Should I stick with what is working, or should I up my powder charge some for increased velocity?

Some of the particulars that may effect my shooting: because of the thick patches, it takes a lot of force to load the gun; not using a hammer, but I have to push fairly hard to get the ball started and down the barrel. Second, as I was taught, the PRB is seated firmly on the powder, to the point that the ram rod will bounce off and back up the barrel some when dropped down the barrel, so the powder is packed in tight. The gun is pre-QLA, so the rifling starts at the muzzle, and the barrel is fairly worn. It was very rusty when I purchased it, and it took a lot of work to get it smooth and shootable.

Thanks a bunch; I'm glad to be here.

D

 

[Norskie]

Do you know what your twist is? I generally shoot 60 grains of 3f (490 prb, .015 pillow ticking patch) in my 1 in 48, both for target work and deer hunting. If your twist is slower a heavier charge may be in order.

 

[paulvallandigham]

I shoot 65 grains of 2Fg powder with a .490 ball and .015 patch, lubed with bore butter days before the shooting so it soaks completely into the patches. I found I got more consistent groups with that load than with using FFFg, powder, after testing both over a 3 year period. I had no noticeable different in the amount of fouling from one to the other, but it did feel like the 2Fg powder fouled less in my gun barrel. My gun is also a 1:48 twist.

You can shoot lighter loads than this if shooting at 25 yds, and this is a good hunting load when your shots are at 75 yds and under. You might want to go up to 70-80 grains for a flatter shooting hunting load if you think you are going to have a 100 yd shot. When I scout my locations for deer stands in the summer, and early fall, I cut out, or define shooting lanes, and then measure them to see how far I can see, and shoot in each. I pace them off, but I have used tape measures to do this, also. I note whre certain trees are located at various yardage, but I have a friend who actually puts out ranging stakes, a habit he made when he was just hunting with a bow and arrow. The 180 grain round ball you are shooting will give you the penetration to kill a deer at even low speeds, so the only reason to adjust the velocity is to aid you in doping the trajectory. YOu don't need a hot load out the muzzle to kill a deer within 100 yds. The round ball is so poor a projectile that it sheds all that extra velocity within the first 25 yds, anyway. Save the powder, use that target load and learn to shoot accurately both off a rest, and standing on your own two feet. Ball placement is more important than velocity to kill deer.

 

[wolfe28]

Oops, I forgot to mention that. The TC New Englander has a 1 in 48 twist.

Thanks,
D

 

[rich pierce]

You're good to go with 60 grains for target shooting. If it's accurate and fun to shoot, you surely do not need 90 grains of powder. 75 grains is a good deer load, but 60 grains is fine as long as you don't stretch it out too far. The important thing as Paul said is to place your shot. Lots of folks are convinced by the advertising of some manufacturers that high velocity and an elongated bullet are needed to kill deer. Generally speaking, using 1/3 to 1/2 the weight of the ball, in powder, is a good charge. In this case, 60-90 grains is your range. This will depend on caliber and twist of course, but for a .50, this is a good rule.

 

[roundball]

Be really very cautious if you're having to use gorilla force to seat a PRB and you're using a wooden ramrod...they can break and either injure you arm/hand, ruin a hunt, or both.

Unless you're using bore size balls on the competition circuit and hammering them in with a mallet, it should not be that difficult to seat a PRB assuming you've already punched it in with a short starter...sounds like your denim patch might be a tad thicker than it really needs to be.

As one example, I use TC's .018" prelubed pillow ticking patches in all my TC barrels, whether they are 1:48" or 1:66"...I short start them in then seat them down with one smooth downstroke.

 

[Landngroove]

The T/C New Englander, a fine muzzleloader! 60 grains of FFFG behind a .490" patched roundball should be fine for target shooting. If you have a Wal-Mart near, go to the fabric section, and buy a yard of thier pillow ticking material. It comes in either blue, or red stripes. It is about .018" thick, and makes good patch material. It is also inexpensive. Be sure to wash it before cutting your patches, and using your favorite lube. Using this material, it should load easier, and have good accuracy. :thumbsup:

 

[Zonie]

wolfe28: You asked if you should increase your loads because you've read that others are using larger loads.

The answer is, go with what is working for you if you are target shooting.
Your 60 grain load will work for deer as others have said, but before you try it on deer, try some of the increased loads.
Your gun should be quite safe up to a load of 120 grains so don't worry about that.

As you noticed, changing the load improved your group size. Having found this out, increase your range to 50 yards and shoot a few groups. Then increase your powder load to 75 grains and try it.
It may enlarge your group or it may reduce it's size.
Even if it increases the group size, try shooting a group or two with 85 grains of powder or even more.
In other words, do some experimenting.
Sooner or later you will find a load that works best in your rifle.

It's just my opinion but if you are hunting deer you will want a load which has as much power as it can, without loosing accuracy. Often this works out to be in the 85-95 grain area.

zonie

 

[Slake]

try and try again and enjoy while you're doing it
I gone from wicked hot {150 grains} to super light {25 grains} I'm amazed how accurate the lighter loads can be. I take kids shooting and some of them are small so I load them down to 25 grains of fff Goex on say a 50 cal round ball and those kids pulverize the bullseye at 25 yards.
On starters for the kids I have a little rubber mallet and they smack the patch and ball into the muzzle with that and then use a short starter to push it in a bit farther. Then I favor a solid brass range rod to push it down the rest of the way. {I check the little kids to make sure they've seated it}
There are many ways to enjoy this shooting of ours and whatever works best for you and whatever you enjoy the most is the fun you get to have while you find what that combination is
One thing about muzzleloaders I found is for the most part, particularly at shoots you'll not hear discouraging words. Listen and learn but by all means experiement!

 

[Pittsburghunter]

That is true make sure you load with enough power to humanely take game.

 

[Jarikeen]

I went the other way and loaded down to 25 grains in my .45 cal out to 100 yards for target work, no worries. Don't discount the lesser for fear of ridicule.

 

[Halftail]

I have killed many Deer with my New Englander using .490 Ball,018 ticking patch and 90 grains of 3f.My target load isn't ever any more than 50 grains of 3f.
Your results may vary. :v

 

[wolfe28]

Thanks one and all for the advice and letting me know that I'm on the right track. Like I said, I consider myself new to muzzleloading, and I want to make sure I'm doing things correctly. I'm planning on being able to take this rifle out to 100 yards consistantly for target work, as well as hunting (the next one on the list is a .32 cal for small stuff, I'm definitely hooked).

One thing that came to mind in reading your responses and other posts. Several people have mentioned patch condition as a sign of different things. Mine have always sat and smoldered ahead of the firing line, so there wasn't anything left to look at when a cease-fire was called at the range. So, I'm thinking that my patches are too dry. I put TC Maxi Lube on them, but I would hardly say that they are completely covered in the stuff.

If I increased the lube on the patches so they are "moist" all the way around, shouldn't that ease some of my difficulty starting the ball, as well as help with accuracy?

Thanks, D

 

[roundball]

If I increased the lube on the patches so they are "moist" all the way around, shouldn't that ease some of my difficulty starting the ball, as well as help with accuracy?

Absolutely...and you're right, smoldering patches is not a good thing...patch failure like that can affect accuracy and start a fire in dry conditions...sounds like it definitely needs more lube.

You mentioned Maxi-Lube which to my knowledge is a very old TC formula that has not existed for years...it is an actual petroleum based grease that was developed as lube for Maxi-Hunters and Maxi-Balls, hence the name Maxi-Lube.

My suggestion would be to try TC Natural Lube 1000 to lube your patches, or just buy TC's precut/prelubed pillow ticking patches...a real benefit of commercial patches is their consistency from one shot to the next.

In addition, NL1000 actually minimizes fouling and keeps what little there is very soft so seating the next PRB wipes it off the bore walls.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Patch lube is all important, even if you just use spit to lube a patch. You should never have a patch smoldering in the grass! You are using a light charge of 3Fg powder. YOu should not be burning patches at all. 3Fg burns hotter than does 2Fg powder, but usually you have to have a load of 70 grains or more before patch burning becomes a problem, provided you are using a good lube.

Reading your patches is everything to understanding what is happening inside your gun, that affects its accuracy. Next would be using a chronograph, but there is almost an art in using hat data, too. Always pick up patches to see how your load is performing. Roundball posted pictures of dozens of his patches fired out of his T/C rifle, several months ago, and re-published only a few weeks ago. All show a nice ring around the the back side of the ball, and an off-white, to light yellow center to the middle of the patch. Yellow on the edges which are usually frayed when the patch hits the air leaving the muzzle. His patches show no hole, or tears. Compare those to ones with hole, tears, large burned, and charred sections on the sides, or charred centers.

Tearing is caused either by burrs on the lands, in a new barrel, too sharp an edge at the muzzle, or because the patch is too thin for the ball/bore combination.

Bruned patches almost always occur because if inadequate, or lack of lube, but obviously if the patch is too thin, it can also burn through. Long barrels require patches with a good lube, to avoid burning. As I mentioned above, Some guns shoot better, without burning patches if you use FFg rather than FFFg powder.

If you have to stick with a thin patch for your particular ball diameter/bore diameter combination, ( some guns have extremely shallow rifling grooves, so there is not enough room for the material from a thicker patch to squeeze down into the grooves so they can be used.) you will probably have to use some kind of overpowder wad, or filler to seal the gases behind the PRB to keep the gases from cutting and tearing the thin patches. If you have a gun with deep rifling, the better solution is to use a small diameter ball so that you can use a patch thickness that is thick enough to feel the grooves to seal the bore.

For instance, I had a .451 diameter rifle with scratches for rifling. I began using .445 Diameter balls and .005" thick patches. It shot okay, but the patches tore about every fifth shot. I change to using .440 balls, and using .010" patches, and the gas cutting stopped. I could not use the more popular .015" or thicker patching since I could not get that combination down the barrel.

I hope that helps you understand the advice we have all tried to give you, and the importance of reading your patches.