Inconsistency

[CapPopper]

So the last week I've finally gotten around to shooting my .32 pedersoli Kentucky ... After playing with powder charges and patches (spit patches only so far) I've got something resembling groups lol now my issue is I'll have several good hits and then just a couple that are out there a bit Like this group...

That's 3 shots in the one hole and two flyers at 25 yards with 40 gr fffg.... Every patch I've picked up has looked good. All sprues loaded pointing up. I didn't weigh those balls but I did weigh about 40 out of the cup I put them in and none varied more than about .2 grs that I did weigh. So I'm wondering what I did wrong to cause the two flyers..... I feel like my follow through is good. Of course maybe I'm wrong l this is my first flintlock but when I do get a misfire (doesn't happen much at all) I'm rock steady. Kind of wonder if my ball starter isn't marking the balls differently or if that would even have an effect. So then I shot this group paying more attention to exactly how I was loading and starting the balls.

Which is a little more consistent overall but doesn't have the three in one hole like the other group.... It's a 1" white square and the tiny bit of stringing could be inconsistent patch slickness for sure..... Since my experience mostly lies in the center fire world I was wondering if this is reasonable accuracy..... I guess if that last one hadn't had the smidge of stringing it would only be a little over a half inch. I've got ballistol and I've purchased Dutch's book even though I had the gist of it to start with, but I wanted to find something reasonable before I started hunting for perfection.... So is this a reasonable starting point? I guess it doesn't take much error with iron sights to open up a group a tiny bit.... 35 grs seems to shoot about the same overall but under that it starts to open up a bit.

All shot at 25 yards. So what kind of accuracy should I expect and what would you guys (and occasional gal) do to improve it? I feel like I should be able to do one tiny hole at 25 no problem but this is not an F-class rifle and I have no real idea....

 

[cynthialee]

I don't see a problem
I'd be happy with a group that good

But I am in it for the hunting more than the shooting and those groups will kill bambi (well a rabbit, I don't think you should hunt bambi with a small caliber

 

[mooman76]

I usually don't swab after my shots but with my 32, if I don't swab I start getting fliers after 3 shots. Like Cynthialee stated those aren't bad groups at all but it's in our nature to try to improve things when we can.

 

[jdw276]

Stout load 40 grains. I use half that. But your groups are way better than mine are.....

 

[CapPopper]

Forgot to say I was swabbing after every shot. I figure using the dry patch method will tighten them up some I just wanted to get In the ballpark first.

 

[Sparkitoff]

My 32 was the CVA Squirrel. The was 28 grains of 3F. All hits within 1" at 25-yards was expected, occasionally it or I would shrink that group but I never saw it open up beyond an inch at that distance. I think you're doing okay!

 

[Pete G]

Keep shooting (and following through). Your group will get better as you become more accustomed to the rifle.

 

[CapPopper]

Ok I just wasn't sure what a reasonable expectation for accuracy was.... I'm sure different patch lube will get rid of some of that stringing should be getting close to a half inch at that range then. I'm just used to groups better than that at 200...... Used to headshot squirrels with one of those things we don't talk about at 175 when I was younger if they would sit still long enough. My .50 just does not like round balls as far as I have been able to determine so far (going to keep trying) but it will put all of the minie balls in one hole so tight you question if it was more than one shot at 50 yards if I do my part..... so I wasn't sure what a realistic goal was. I reckon a .32 isn't too much use over 50 yards or so anyways. Thanks all.

 

[ord sgt]

Were you shooting from the offhand position or was the rifle supported at the bench? How about wind? It shouldn't matter too much at 25 yards but.....

 

[JamesA]

So the last week I've finally gotten around to shooting my .32 pedersoli Kentucky ... After playing with powder charges and patches (spit patches only so far) I've got something resembling groups lol now my issue is I'll have several good hits and then just a couple that are out there a bit Like this group...
View attachment 109956
That's 3 shots in the one hole and two flyers at 25 yards with 40 gr fffg.... Every patch I've picked up has looked good. All sprues loaded pointing up. I didn't weigh those balls but I did weigh about 40 out of the cup I put them in and none varied more than about .2 grs that I did weigh. So I'm wondering what I did wrong to cause the two flyers..... I feel like my follow through is good. Of course maybe I'm wrong l this is my first flintlock but when I do get a misfire (doesn't happen much at all) I'm rock steady. Kind of wonder if my ball starter isn't marking the balls differently or if that would even have an effect. So then I shot this group paying more attention to exactly how I was loading and starting the balls.

View attachment 109957
Which is a little more consistent overall but doesn't have the three in one hole like the other group.... It's a 1" white square and the tiny bit of stringing could be inconsistent patch slickness for sure..... Since my experience mostly lies in the center fire world I was wondering if this is reasonable accuracy..... I guess if that last one hadn't had the smidge of stringing it would only be a little over a half inch. I've got ballistol and I've purchased Dutch's book even though I had the gist of it to start with, but I wanted to find something reasonable before I started hunting for perfection.... So is this a reasonable starting point? I guess it doesn't take much error with iron sights to open up a group a tiny bit.... 35 grs seems to shoot about the same overall but under that it starts to open up a bit.
View attachment 109958
All shot at 25 yards. So what kind of accuracy should I expect and what would you guys (and occasional gal) do to improve it? I feel like I should be able to do one tiny hole at 25 no problem but this is not an F-class rifle and I have no real idea....

Welcome to black powder. I'd love to have consistent groupings like that.

 

[CapPopper]

Were you shooting from the offhand position or was the rifle supported at the bench? How about wind? It shouldn't matter too much at 25 yards but.....

Off my pack on the hood of the jeep pretty much non existent wind.

 

[Brokenbear]

Not familiar with your weapon's sights ..but two things ..one ...For your choice of yardage get an aiming "dot"/"spot"/"square" whose size is large enough that your front sight will leave a small portion of the aiming spot showing around the front sight 180 degrees (left,right and top) of sight ..two ..get good color contrast between how your eye sees your front sight, target board (cardboard in the case) and the color of the aiming point ..try to have the sun at your back ..
Your "flyers" are basically vertical ... it is possible your are hunting the sweet spot of the front sight sitting comfortably with in the rear sight
Last ..to take all the above out of the human eye and sight pictures equation ..a rear peep sigh (tang sight) squares everything the above is trying to address ..

Bear

 

[CapPopper]

Not familiar with your weapon's sights ..but two things ..one ...For your choice of yardage get an aiming "dot"/"spot"/"square" whose size is large enough that your front sight will leave a small portion of the aiming spot showing around the front sight 180 degrees (left,right and top) of sight ..two ..get good color contrast between how your eye sees your front sight, target board (cardboard in the case) and the color of the aiming point ..try to have the sun at your back ..
Your "flyers" are basically vertical ... it is possible your are hunting the sweet spot of the front sight sitting comfortably with in the rear sight
Last ..to take all the above out of the human eye and sight pictures equation ..a rear peep sigh (tang sight) squares everything the above is trying to address ..

Bear

In the second picture I very deliberately aimed at just the bottom of my square. I shot some the other day but the bluing on the front site was messed up from filing some off cause it was super super low..... I had two distinct groups then high ones and low ones where I was hunting for an aim point on the shiny sight..... Going between the end of the bluing and the actual sight.... I fixed that and had a much better aiming point this time. A small part of the elevation could be me but I don't think all of it is. I feel a more consistent patch lube would eliminate some of that for sure. I'm pretty confident my aiming point was not moving up and down on any of the groups. Sight picture was very clear and the square sits perfectly on top of my front sight.

 

[CapPopper]

They are both upside down but you can tell there's two distinct points of aim here lol if not for that the one 35 group would be super good

 

[William Lincoln]

Decent accuracy for hunting. you said "rock steady"--off hand or benched? Maybe I missed
that. That is a good accurate flintlock. Small bore more sensitive to fouling. Are you swabbing?

 

[Grenadier1758]

In the second picture I very deliberately aimed at just the bottom of my square. I shot some the other day but the bluing on the front site was messed up from filing some off cause it was super super low..... I had two distinct groups then high ones and low ones where I was hunting for an aim point on the shiny sight..... Going between the end of the bluing and the actual sight.... I fixed that and had a much better aiming point this time. A small part of the elevation could be me but I don't think all of it is. I feel a more consistent patch lube would eliminate some of that for sure. I'm pretty confident my aiming point was not moving up and down on any of the groups. Sight picture was very clear and the square sits perfectly on top of my front sight.

You filed the bluing off the front sight to raise the impact point and you did apply a fix to the sight. If the sun was glaring on the top of the front sight, your aim would be following the glare. Generally, that will show up as horizontal stringing. And if clouds put a shadow on the sights, then that will change your aim point. Take a tube, such as a cardboard tube from a roll of toilet paper, cut a lengthwise slit and place that over the front sight to place the sight in consistent shade. Maybe do the same for the rear sight too.

Vertical stringing is usually due to changes in velocity. One of the reasons to wipe with a just barely damp patch between shots. Did the loading get harder as you shot the group?

Actually, not bad groupings for just starting out.

 

[CapPopper]

Decent accuracy for hunting. you said "rock steady"--off hand or benched? Maybe I missed
that. That is a good accurate flintlock. Small bore more sensitive to fouling. Are you swabbing?

Yes I'm wiping between shots. Shooting off my back pack in the hood of the jeep. If I was shooting 100 with a scope I would probably say only acceptably steady but it looked real steady with irons lol I'm really not displeased with my group sizes more I just felt I could do better and really don't know what "good" groups are for a prb flintlock . Me and dad have been building custom unmentionables (at least for ourselves I don't own a factory one at all) and I'm kind of spoiled for accuracy..... I don't think I have an unmentionable that will do less than .5 moa any day.

 

[CapPopper]

You filed the bluing off the front sight to raise the impact point and you did apply a fix to the sight. If the sun was glaring on the top of the front sight, your aim would be following the glare. Generally, that will show up as horizontal stringing. And if clouds put a shadow on the sights, then that will change your aim point. Take a tube, such as a cardboard tube from a roll of toilet paper, cut a lengthwise slit and place that over the front sight to place the sight in consistent shade. Maybe do the same for the rear sight too.

Vertical stringing is usually due to changes in velocity. One of the reasons to wipe with a just barely damp patch between shots. Did the loading get harder as you shot the group?

Actually, not bad groupings for just starting out.

I was wiping and I thought the minor horizontal could be sun related though it was not super sunny.... With my 1911 the sun will move my poi 3-4 inches at 25..... I may try to hood the front site next time. As for vertical now that I've found an acceptable patch thickness (and I've got a free unlimited supply cause my grandmother makes Cornhole bags out of it and has boxes and boxes of scraps) I'm going to mix up some ballistol and try some dry patching. I was using spit I would put patch in mouth grab a ball then try to wring as much moisture out as I could with my thumb and forefinger. It's entirely possible it could've been more consistent or that I may have forgot one or two and had a too slick/too wet patch that could've slightly compromised my charge. So tomorrow in washing canvas and dipping some patching lol after my son's birthday party of course. If I don't go out for our last two gun season days this weekend with the .50.

 

[Rum River]

I think your groups look good to me.

I have a pair of .32 Pedersoli Frontiers, flint and percussion - a 48" twist.
The load I use in both is a .315" Hornady swaged ball with a .015" mink oil patch and 30 grs. Goex FFFg.
In my rifles this will shoot 1"-1.5" at 50 yards off a bench with sandbags both fore and aft. As others have said, it doesn't take long for fouling to cause a problem. I have to swab roughly every three to five shots.

As to the glare - Elmer Keith used a phrase 'shooting away from the light', which I have found to be true.
For example if I'm dealing with a front bead that is rounded vs flat faced, I'll get glare from one side. If that glare is on the left my bullet holes go right and vice versa.

 

[dave951]

I'd say you need to revisit your "bench" technique first. Techniques used with modern rifles quite often don't play nice with our guns.

Longrifles can be quite sensitive to how they're benched and held. Try this- hold the rifle as you would offhand. Transfer to the bench using the same hold points. Rest ONLY the back of your forward hand on the rest. Grip the rifle barrel with your forward hand as you would offhand. Do not "crush" grip the wrist of the stick and be sure that your trigger hand placement is consistent. What you're after is to replicate the same recoil dynamic as offhand but with the aid of a bench to steady the aim a bit. Rifle barrels move under recoil in a harmonic wave. Where you put that front hand and how you grip the rifle will absolutely change how your gun groups. Where you rest that long rifle barrel on a rest will dramatically change how a longrifle will group.

Following is a proof picture. Rifle was brand new Kibler kit custom built by one of our forum members. He was having issues getting it to group. The picture is my first 4 shots from the gun using the exact same load but with the technique I just described. Pathfinder was getting inconsistent and sometimes large groups. He has since changed to my method and his groups are now similar to this one.

Kibler Colonial 54cal flintlock at 50yd. Diameter of the ball is incorrect.