Incorrect indexing of 1858 cylinder

[jderrick]

Hello... I'm putting together a kit for an 1858 .44 Remington, courtesy of CVA. I'm putting it all together and testing it and I'm running into an issue.

With the cylinder, hammer, trigger and springs installed, I start off the hammer on a notch in the cylinder between two nipples. I thumb back the hammer and it turns to the next notch, the next notch, the next notch, but doesn't want to index to a nipple.

If I start out on a nipple, when i work the hammer it indexes to a notch, then the next notch, the next notch....

Any thoughts? Do I have a spring working too strongly? Not strong enough? The cylinder is turning pretty freely (I've still got one snag I'm working out). If you like I can try to get some photos (or even a little video) posted.

Thanks :hmm:

 

[jmckenney]

Check to make sure the cylinder stop is engaging the cylinder stop slots. May have a burr on the stop or in the frame slot that prevents it from working, also check to make sure the finger spring isn't broken. Secondly, check the hand/pawl and spring to make sure they are functioning, if they working properly the hand/pawl may be too long. 3rd which you don't want is the cylinder indexing is off by 10* and you need a new cylinder.
Good luck.

 

[jderrick]

I think everything is functioning. It lines up pretty well with the notches, but not the nipples. When the cylinder stop finishes withdrawing and extends at the end of the cocking action, it comes in on the cylinder halfway between notches... Here's a video of it: www.shelbystar.com/video/january/revolver resized.wmv

 

[Musketeer]

I don't have any experience with the '58, but it looks like it functions pretty much the same way as the Colt's (which I have a good amount of experience with). On a Colt, when the hammer is thumbed back, the cylinder stop is lowered out of the notch on the cylinder just long enough for the notch to index out of the way so the cylinder can turn. As soon as the notch has rotated past the stop, the stop pops back up and drags along the surface of the cylinder until the next notch indexes into place. At this point, the stop pops up into the notch and locks the cylinder, and the hammer should be at full cock. Does that all make sense? :haha:
Anyhow, two possibly culprits could be: a) the hand is too short, and is therefore unable to finish rotating the cylinder all the way, or b) the cylinder stop spring is too heavy (or the stop itself is too tall), resulting in excessive stop pressure on the cylinder, which may cause enough drag on the cylinder to keep it from properly indexing.
I'd be interested to know whether you can get the cylinder to index properly by forcefully thumbing back the hammer? In other words, instead of an easy cocking motion, thumb the hammer back hard. This may impart enough momentum to the cylinder that it will index correctly, adding further evidence that you are encountering one of the problems listed above. :hmm: :hatsoff:

 

[Voyageur]

Just from looking at the video (in which you operate the action too fast for good viewing) it appears that there is a hesitation when you first start to cock the hammer. On the bottom of the hammer is a cam surface that one of the bolt stop legs rides on. It almost looks as if the bolt stop is not being rotated down out of the cylinder bolt stop slot soon enough.

By-the-way... this all comes under the heading of 'timing'.

So, is the hand too long? Or is the bolt stop leg/cam surface not lined up correctly?

On thing is clear... the bolt stop is dropping down too soon on the cylinder. This is what causes the 'drag mark' around the cylinder. Being 'out of time' this way is more common than you think and most shooters think it's supposed to be that way.

Now... is the cylinder 'locked' when the hammer is at full cock and IT DOES NOT line up with the nipple upon being released? If the cylinder is locked with the bolt in the slot and the hammer is not lined up with the nipple then timing is not your problem. Either the cylinder bolt stop slot is in the wrong place or the 'window' that the bolt top comes up though from the frame is in the wrong place.

 

[jderrick]

When the bolt's in the stop the hammer's on a nipple, so that's lined up right.

See, the bolt isn't stopped in the cylinder. If I start off with it stopped in the cylinder, when I cock the hammer the cylinder moves to a notch and the bolt stops on the cylinder. If I do it again, the bolt retracts, the cylinder turns and when the bolt comes back out again it's already past the stop on the cylinder.

The cylinder stop seems to be functioning. When I work the hammer the bolt does it's think for 1/6 the turn of the cylinder, which seems about right. I played with bending the spring to various strengths. Trying to cock the hammer forcefully doesn't seem to make any difference. It seems like the mechanics work well, but instead of centering on the nipple it centers on the notches.

I'll post a closeup photo later of the cylinder. I'm thinking it may be an issue of the hand or how it works with the cylinder.

 

[Voyageur]

OK... but keep this in mind: When the bolt pops up through the window of the frame, THE LEG OF THE BOLT HAS ALREADY SLIPPED OFF THE CAM!

It may just be that the hand is too long and is indexing the wrong notch. Man! I wish I had that revolver in my mitts but I live at the end of nowhere in the Northern Rockys.

 

[Musketeer]

Maybe I read wrong the first time. Are you saying that the stop pops up AFTER the stop notch on the cylinder has passed by it? Also, for clarity, when you say that it indexes on the notches, are you talking about the safety notches in the rear of the cylinder, so, instead of seeing a nipple under the hammer, you see a safety notch?

 

[jderrick]

Yes, I'm talking about the safety notches on the rear of the cylinder. With regards to the bolt and cylinder stop, the bolt pops up after the stop has gone by, but it started out between stops to begin with because the cylinder is stopping on the safety notches, not the nipples. It retracts and springs out again in 1/6th the rotation of the cylinder. I dunno. I've got it runing freely enough it'll spin a couple times if you roll it with your hand. I'm concerned about making it too loose and having a poor fit.

 

[Musketeer]

It sounds like it's spinning freely enough then. I'll take a closer look at my colt later and see if I can come up with any other thoughts. :thumbsup:

 

[Liver eatin’ Johnson]

The cylinder bolt must be too long where it cams against the hammer ( yellow circles ) for it to stay retracted too long as you mentioned.

 

[jderrick]

Here you go with my clyinder. Everything look like it's carved in there right, not offset by 30 degrees or anything?

I'm not sure it's the bolt that's messing up, though I'm certainly open to options. The bolt retracts and pops out again over what seems to me a proper 1/6th the turn of the cylinder. But the had keeps orientating the cylinger to the saftey notch, not the nipple. Still, I'll have another look at the bolt.

Would it help if I took it by a local gun store? They don't specialize much in black powder, but they do carry revolvers.

Thanks for your help with all this. Aside from a recent flinter rifle kit I'm rather a newbie to this.

 

[John Taylor]

I guess I'll jump in here. I have worked on more than a few Remingtons. From the info you give it sound like the hand is to long which is turning the cylinder past the bolt before it is released. There is quite a bit to time one of these. The bolt should drop into the cylinder notch at the same time as the sear drops into the full cock. At this point there should be no play in the hand. At half cock the bolt should be held down and the cylinder should turn to the right (Clockwise from the shooters point of view) and the hand should click like a ratchet. It's been a while sence I have had one of the kits in the shop, I thought there were instructions with them on timing. New hands are made a little long so they can be fit to the gun.
Liked your vidio

 

[jderrick]

Ahh... if that hand's a little long that might explain a thing or two.... As far as directions, the kit from CVA comes with directions on what the symphony of gadgets should do, but not a whole lot about what to do when they don't. I'll give them a call in the morning to ask them about maybe filing down that hand a little. Any other suggestions?

 

[John Taylor]

Go slow when fitting the parts. It's a little hard to put metal back on. There is something I should clearafy. The bolt is relesed from the hammer just before full cock and then drops into the notch in the cylinder at full cock. Once the hammer is at full cock and the bolt ingaged you should not be able to pull the hammer back more than a few thousenth.

 

[Musketeer]

I looked at my 1860's innards last night and I would have to agree with the hand assessment. If the hand is too long, which is very possible given John's comments about how the hands that come with the kits are made, it's likely pushing the cylinder too far too fast and levering it right past the stop notches in the cylinder. Come to think of it, I put a new hand and hand spring in my Dragoon a couple years ago, and the replacement hand and spring were too long. In a Colt, however, if the hand is too long, the hammer won't come all the way back to full cock, because of the way the hand channel is cut into the frame. On the Dragoon, I just filed the hand down 'til it fit and then snipped off the end of the spring to match. It looks like the hand has more room to move up and down in the '58, so instead of a hand that's too long topping out in its channel like on a Colt, it just pushes the cylinder past where it should be.
As far as clipping the spring, I just popped it out of the little slot in the back of the hand that it fits into and used a wire cutter to snip of a tiny bit from the bottom, then reinstalled it in the slot, and it's held up fine for nearly two years.
Just go slow with the file, and keep checking the fit every few strokes, so you don't take too much off. :hatsoff:

 

[jderrick]

Hey, just wanted to let you know what's going on with that revolver....

I called CVA, and spoke to a guy with DPI (?), who said my revolver kit was made by AML, which is now handled by Deer Creek Products.

I think I've got that straight.

Anyway, I told him all of the above (the abbridged version) and he said I could send it in for free and they'd fix the timing. We talked about the suggestion to file it a bit, but he suggested leaving it to a true gunsmith and I'm of the mind to side with the greater part of valor and let somebody else screw it up/pay for it.

So it's going in the mail... I'll keep you posted.