India Torador Matchlock Wall Gun

[rickystl]

These India pattern matchlocks seem to be so common

Hi Smokey

They are not only common, but there are many original examples still available today. The likely reason is that the locals continued to make and use these guns through at least the 1880's. Probably beyond. It really is hard to fathom.

Rick

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Still Rick,, we see old musket barrels as I said earlier, found in old sheds and such and the bores are always better. (always seems an OK word in this case!)

I have read how when a torador barrel was made, it went to the Rajah or whoever for inspection.
Then with some instructions on how it was to be finished, it went back to the maker and was stocked up and finished.
It then went back to the Rajah along with I think three balls to try it.
It was fired and inspected by him, went back again , was cleaned and put into the armoury.
So, they Did get cleaned at least once!

I cannot believe these were Not cleaned, as even the wild northern tribesmen relied on them, and were brilliant shots with them., If you expect them to work for you, we all know that a barrel must be kept in good order.
I have only one matchlock barrel that isn't eaten to death, but the rust scale was so hard it was still a real sod to get it clean.
Its from the armoury up in Rajasthan, -Jaipour to be specific.
Its a heavy gun, and likes 5 drams of powder behind a .54 ball.

Still, it is hard to shoot well with it!

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

"This damage appears from one end of India to the other.." Agreed. Every barrel I've seen has the same, heavy corrosion from the muzzle to the breach.
Here is the video I posted on another Thread. They used a bore camera going from the muzzle to the beginning of the narrow section. Note the heavy corrosion. As Pukka mentions, they all look just like this, if not worse. It would be one thing if a parcel of barrels looked this way. But ALL of them ? Has to be something in the mix of the locally made powder.

FWIW I’ve struck up something of an ‘email friendship’ with the noted old arms article author, Garry James (of Guns&Ammo magazine) along with Phil Schreier, the Director of the NRA Firearms National Museum.

I’ll ask them to comment on this topic!

 

[Capnball]

MORE PICS...

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What a great restoration project.

 

[rickystl]

Pukka: I agree. It doesn't make any sense that the bores were never cleaned after use. But I don't know what else to conclude. Maybe your idea of pouring something down the bores to make them in-operable after capture and rack marked is not as far fetched as you think (?) The heavy corrosion in the bores is almost like a scale, and very consistent through the entire bore length. Wonder if there was something in in the iron mixture when making the barrels, when mixed with the crude powder, that caused an acceleration in the corrosion factor ? LOL I've run out of answers. But maybe once the barrel is cut in two, and the breech area spliced, we might find another clue.

Rick

 

[Sam squanch]

Soldiers are soldiers in any time period. They probably avoided cleaning them if they would not be caught. I was an armorer in the Missouri NG , the convoluted ways guys would come up with to avoid a time consuming cleaning job were many. Especially at 4pm on a Sunday.

 

[rickystl]

The wall gun is now disassembled. The whole gun came apart with a medium ball peen hammer, 3/32" pin driver, and a piece of wood dowel. First the ramrod out. It was long enough to reach the front of the narrow section of the bore with the button end, which would have been all that was necessary for loading. Next, the trigger/serpentine assembly removed. The size is a bit larger/longer than normal to accommodate a big wall gun like this. But design-wise, it's built the same as the others. This one has a slight bend in the middle area. Will still be good for my lock collection after clean-up. I was surprised that the stock was in as good of shape as it is. A minor crack at the muzzle and breech ends. Otherwise still very solid. And finally the barrel, which was held with 5 barrel bands, The front band was copper (but old) and the rest were iron. The rear band has a slot that fits over the rear sight and wraps around that portion of the stock and secured with two tiny nails. The nails were tapered with flats. The real thing. LOL There is a pin that secures the breech end of the stock that travels through a loop that is forged to the bottom of the breech end of the barrel. It took a bit of work to get that one pin out. Appeared to be some old damage to the loop - that I added to. But no issue, I got the pin out. Interesting the groove for the ramrod channel was hand cut with a chisel it's entire length. And a good job of it considering. By the way, the stock is in fact a two-piece, like all the others I've seen. And an amazing good job of it. Only one minor carving on the stock. The barrel is a beast. In front of the larger breech area, there appears to be very little, if any taper. I need to weigh the stock and barrel separately.
Anyway, the barrel is ready to cut in two. I plan on doing this tomorrow morning with a hacksaw with a fresh blade. Hopefully it won't take too long to cut since I cutting malleable iron versus steel. But the barrel wall is very thick. Need someone with a band saw. LOL
Meantime here is a bunch of pics.....

Rick

 

[rickystl]

MORE PICS......

 

[rickystl]

STILL MORE....

 

[Sam squanch]

Let’s have a moment of silence for that old gun. You never know, it may have saved someone’s life, or turned the tide of some long forgotten battle.

 

[TobJohn]

Let’s have a moment of silence for that old gun. You never know, it may have saved someone’s life, or turned the tide of some long forgotten battle.

Or ended someone else’s…

 

[TobJohn]

STILL MORE....

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I am very fascinated to see how the breech end looks in the cut away. I don’t know of any cut away examples of a solid breech muzzleloader.

 

[rickystl]

Hi John

I've always wanted to get a cut-away of one of these unusual barrels. It's one of the mysteries of muzzle loading. Until now, I've never been able to locate a barrel only for this project. That this barrel is from a larger wall gun will make viewing the inside of the breech area even easier. Once the splice is made, it will be easy to clean off the rust, dirt, etc. from the two pieces. These barrels seem to originate in Central and Northern India. Barrels that I've seen from Southern India do not have this style of breech area and are typical cylinder bore. But then, the cultural differences between the North and South have been noted for a long time. Will indeed be interesting. By the way. I weighed the barrel and stock separately. The stock is 2/3-lbs. The barrel itself is 17/18-lbs.

Rick

 

[BillinOregon]

Rick, can you ask your doc or veterinarian to X-Ray the breech? (My vet, a gun guy, X-Rayed an original Peabody .40-90 What Cheer cartridge loaned to me by a collector some 20 years ago. I then took that cartridge to Dave Kiff at Pacific Tool to take dimensions from. They have the print.)

 

[rickystl]

Hi Bill.

I thought about using an X-Ray a few years ago, if I ever found a barrel. But these barrels all seem to have a large degree of rust/scale. And my thought was that this would cause an X-Ray to be cloudy or not vey clear. The splice will allow easy cleaning and unobscured observation for study. Should make for interesting conversation and of course theories LOL I'll keep the spliced breech in my collection. Eventually, I'll send it back to Flint62 - or someone younger than myself for future study by others.

Rick

 

[earlwb]

Still Rick,, we see old musket barrels as I said earlier, found in old sheds and such and the bores are always better. (always seems an OK word in this case!)

I have read how when a torador barrel was made, it went to the Rajah or whoever for inspection.
Then with some instructions on how it was to be finished, it went back to the maker and was stocked up and finished.
It then went back to the Rajah along with I think three balls to try it.
It was fired and inspected by him, went back again , was cleaned and put into the armoury.
So, they Did get cleaned at least once!

I cannot believe these were Not cleaned, as even the wild northern tribesmen relied on them, and were brilliant shots with them., If you expect them to work for you, we all know that a barrel must be kept in good order.
I have only one matchlock barrel that isn't eaten to death, but the rust scale was so hard it was still a real sod to get it clean.
Its from the armoury up in Rajasthan, -Jaipour to be specific.
Its a heavy gun, and likes 5 drams of powder behind a .54 ball.

Still, it is hard to shoot well with it!

I will vote for that the victor likely poured something caustic down the bore to ruin it. Thus it would not be useable against them later. It would be way too much effort to try and demilitarize the things as they made lots of them. Thst then leads to the fact that they had a large industry already developed to make more. Thus it was probably a futile effort to damage or destroy them.

 

[Billy-by-gosh]

Rick, can you ask your doc or veterinarian to X-Ray the breech? (My vet, a gun guy, X-Rayed an original Peabody .40-90 What Cheer cartridge loaned to me by a collector some 20 years ago. I then took that cartridge to Dave Kiff at Pacific Tool to take dimensions from. They have the print.)

I also wondered about X-Raying it...but with the additional step of filling the breech/bore with very fine birdshot to clarify the cavity in the xray photos.

 

[Sam squanch]

With the caste system firmly in place in the times these matchlocks were used, maybe lower caste people were tasked with cleaning them, and either didn’t do it or didn’t know how to. I would think a victorious army would keep them for their own use, keeping them in fighting condition. Maybe the gunpowder used combined with something in the iron used locally ruined them?

 

[XVIIc Wheelock]

My unquestioned thoughts on these firearms prior to the 20 Century; they were made not by armorers, but by hundreds, if not thousands of low caste uneducated villagers who had the talent to make a bare minimum living being paid by the number of guns made (given a sample to copy) and used by an army of a multitude of barefoot tribesmen of sorts...weapons had no quality control (except for those used by the wealthy), cheap and good maybe for a fight or two by thousands of half starved armies who were commanded from the rear by more upper class leaders who did nothing but yell...O.K numbnutts .......attack!

I don't think there was incentive to care for the weapons, just grab what you can to eat between fights, charge when told to and those that didn't get killed were so happy to go back to their villages, make babies for future wars and make more guns.

Having been in the "backwoods" of India in the early '60's...at that time, for the most part, things had not changed much in hundreds of years.

HOWEVER: Today is 180 degrees different, India has since been modernized to aggressively compete with the best of nations in higher education, agriculture, manufacturing, medicine, military and high tech with cities equal in all respects to the Western world. India today is providing the world with the best of scientists, doctors and physicists; A remarkable industrial and commercial revolution with a population comparable to China. To see India today is to believe in miracles.

 

[TobJohn]

Hopefully we will learn something relevant Wednesday! They have a Q&A on these presentations too, if someone has a good way to frame the question of barrel care.