India Torador Matchlock Wall Gun

[rickystl]

With the caste system firmly in place in the times these matchlocks were used, maybe lower caste people were tasked with cleaning them, and either didn’t do it or didn’t know how to. I would think a victorious army would keep them for their own use, keeping them in fighting condition. Maybe the gunpowder used combined with something in the iron used locally ruined them?

Hi Sam

I mentioned this earlier in the Thread. Maybe there was something in the iron used for the barrels that combined with the type of powder used that caused a greater than normal acceleration of corrosion ? What I have noticed in the past, is the type of corrosion in the barrels all look the same. Could be.

Speaking of barrels. I need to get my rear in gear and get that barrel cut in two and sent off to Flint62.

Rick

 

[rickystl]

Thanks John. I just now registered.

Rick

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Rick,
Thinking about these barrels being so badly pitted, it made me wonder if a lot of them are older than we thought and re used?
What made me think of this is that if we go look at the guns of Henry V111 in the Royal Armouries, they are as rough as hell. Rusty and pitted to death in many cases. Made me wonder if these neglected torador barrels aren't really neglected, but were just kept clean on the outside forever, and no-one bothered much with the inside.
In other words, as neglected as the Tower guns on the Inside, but at least someone rubbed the outside down with ghee or whatever on the outside from time to time.
Just a thought when half awake this frosty morning....

 

[XVIIc Wheelock]

Hopefully we will learn something relevant Wednesday! They have a Q&A on these presentations too, if someone has a good way to frame the question of barrel care.

View attachment 285708

Thanks John....I just registered also! Larry
Noted: 8am-9am CST....

 

[TobJohn]

Thanks John. I just now registered.

Rick

Thanks John....I just registered also! Larry
Noted: 8am-9am CST....

I have to physically go to work, so I will unfortunately miss the live broadcast. I am a hoping to catch up on it later in the day.

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

I have to physically go to work, so I will unfortunately miss the live broadcast ....

But, but, but ... you don't do anything once there ... but surf the internet for the latest archaic gem about an old, oLd, OLD fire lock!

 

[TobJohn]

But, but, but ... you don't do anything once there ... but surf the internet for the latest archaic gem about an old, oLd, OLD fire lock!

That’s when I’m at home! Exactly the predicament!

 

[rickystl]

Rick,
Thinking about these barrels being so badly pitted, it made me wonder if a lot of them are older than we thought and re used?
What made me think of this is that if we go look at the guns of Henry V111 in the Royal Armouries, they are as rough as hell. Rusty and pitted to death in many cases. Made me wonder if these neglected torador barrels aren't really neglected, but were just kept clean on the outside forever, and no-one bothered much with the inside.
In other words, as neglected as the Tower guns on the Inside, but at least someone rubbed the outside down with ghee or whatever on the outside from time to time.
Just a thought when half awake this frosty morning....

Hi Pukka

That is a real possibility. Never really thought of that. The reuse of old barrels was common during the period. And I would guess especially in that part of the World. With the exception of the decorated barrels, the only marks you see on these barrels are the later - maybe much later (?) are the letters/numbers from capture and/or rack designations.

Somewhere in my library I have a manuscript of how these barrels were made, But I can't remember where I read it. I remember the methods were very primitive including the use of clay and cow dung. LOL I remember coming across this by accident. And it is written from the early 1800's. Darn. I just have to make a concerted effort to find it. I've never seen this published anywhere else.

Rick

 

[rickystl]

That’s when I’m at home! Exactly the predicament!

Yes, your job gets in the way of your hobby. But without the former, the later might suffer tremendously. LOL

Rick

Yea for retirement !!!

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Rick,
The info you seek will be in Lord Eggerton's book.
I recall reading it there.

 

[Billy-by-gosh]

Rick,
The info you seek will be in Lord Eggerton's book.
I recall reading it there.

"Indian and Oriental Arms and Armour" by Lord Egerton of Tatton.
I believe it's available on Amazon, or as an e-book on Google Books.

 

[cyten]

Some years ago International Military Antiques & Atlanta Cutlery bought TONS of antique arms out of Nepal and brought them stateside, no Toradors that I know of, but you can see the state of which the arms were being "preserved" in. I haven't been in India but have ventured into Nepal, I guess the high altitude is more forgiving on the metal?
Here is a documentary about the Nepal cache, and if you skip to 16:22 & 20:57 you can see how they were stored and at 26:56 they found a matchlock cannon(?)



the whole thing is worth watching if you find the time

 

[TobJohn]

Yea for retirement !!!

only 40 years to go!

 

[TobJohn]

I was able to listen to the talk while writing reports (I was actually working, I swear!) and found it interesting, even though it was bigger picture than just the guns themselves. I never realized how incredibly versatile elephants were for combat and logistics.

 

[Moonshine Joe]

Often overlooked is the conept that elephants also served as watchdogs. Just like horses, they look in the direction of game or intruders, detected by their incredibly good hearing. If no enemy was heard, no alarm. Asked how the handlers knew, it was said to be...
yes... "ear-elephant".

Sorry.

 

[XVIIc Wheelock]

I was able to listen to the talk while writing reports (I was actually working, I swear!) and found it interesting, even though it was bigger picture than just the guns themselves. I never realized how incredibly versatile elephants were for combat and logistics.

Yes I agree...the zoom was about the larger picture of Indian warfare and its terrain from 1560-1616...how it affected their warfare rather than focusing on small arms, other than paintings of archers and matchlocks. Seemed emphasis was on use of cannons and how terrain from western open areas differentiated from central and eastern forested terrain and the affected use of their cannons. Camels and particularly elephants were used to haul the cannons. The monitor spoke in heavy British accent which I have some difficulty understanding (I am only good at Tex/Mex Texan drawel)and the Indian historian of the Mughal Empire also had a very strong India accent (much like when you call for banking or other sites for information...and the agent is usually from India)! Wish it had at least a small segment on small arms. But very interesting non-the-less for an hours worth of education. Added to my much needed education! Thanks TobJohn for the lead! Larry

 

[XVIIc Wheelock]

Often overlooked is the conept that elephants also served as watchdogs. Just like horses, they look in the direction of game or intruders, detected by their incredibly good hearing. If no enemy was heard, no alarm. Asked how the handlers knew, it was said to be...
yes... "ear-elephant".

Sorry.

I think I would rather depend on the likes of our barking little 22# Cockapoo....he lets us know if someone opens a garage door 2 blocks away! I think he hears ants crawl!!

 

[rickystl]

Rick,
The info you seek will be in Lord Eggerton's book.
I recall reading it there.

Thanks Pukka.

Somewhere I have a printed copy of just the info. on the barrel making. It's been so long ago I can't remember how I received it. Someone I think took a copy and mailed it to me.
But now that you mentioned Eggerton's book, I do remember why I don't have that one in my library. Just now I searched for the book for sale. Everyone wants anywhere from $200.00 - $500.00 USD for the book - new. However, just this morning, I searched and located the book in good, used condition for $51.00 USD. All thanks to YOU, which prompted me to search again. LOL THANK YOU !!!! I need this book anyway.

Rick

 

[rickystl]

I also listened this morning. Actually was more of what I thought it would be. Much agree with Larry and John's Posts above. It was OK. We all probably didn't expect too much in the way of our interests. But worth viewing.

I've seen the documentary that Cyten Posted above. In fact, I think I have a CD of it I bought back when they were first offered. Agree, well worth viewing.
Actually, I have a matchlock barrel from that Nepal collection. A collector friend in Atlanta bought it for me. He said it was not in great condition. It was one of only 2-3 matchlock barrels they found buried under some Martini rifles. But for $50.00 USD including shipping, I took a chance. The barrel is not like the other Torador barrels we see. This one looks like it was made on the cheap. It's shorter than normal and bent slightly in the middle. Straight cylinder bore with no bulge at the breech. And smaller caliber. Typical pan with no cover.
Come to think of it, I think (?) I posted it here on the Forum. But it was years ago. I'll post it again.

Rick

 

[TobJohn]

The lecturer mentioning the very frequent rotations of Mughal troops amongst regions of the empire does bring up a possible factor for the barrel care. If the troops had to March across climates, that was probably bad for the barrel, mixed with the issues of powder quality previously mentioned. Alternatively If the guns for each garrison were kept on station for each rotation, maybe the local rulers in charge only had the incentive to maintain the guns in outwardly good aesthetic order, so they were nice on parade but allowed corners to be cut in cleaning and storage.