Inherent accuracy of the 1860

[loki04]

Gentlemen,

I am curious about the inherent accuracy of the 1860 army design. Is it comparable to a modern revolver? How does it compare to a 1858 Remington? Does the open frame design introduce an excessive amount of play into the system as compared to closed frame revolvers? I am quite fond my 1860, but am curious as to what level of accuracy I can expect the pistol to be capable of. (Although it is a bit of a moot point, as I am lucky to hit a bull with a bass fiddle some days.)

Loki

 

[junkman_01]

It's on an equal footing with anything out there, be it C&B or cartridge. It all depends on the shooter/loader.

 

[necchi]

For what it's worth, I'm new to C&B revolvers myself, but my first time out at the range I had two guy's with 9mm's comment that it groups better than their guns.
Guy's here are calling 2-2 1/2" groups par at 25yrds with both the 1860 and 1858, each gun has it's nuance` with accuracy being relative to the shooter.
In experianced hands they're equal.

 

[crockett]

I'll also state the accuracy is on par with all modern handguns- the exception may be an accurized Colt 1911. A lot of 9mm guns have really short barrels and are of a light weight and although a clamped 9mm gun may be accurate- the same gun when held in the hand often yields pretty bad groups. A long barrel revolver is usually better for a lot of folks.

 

[loki04]

Gentlemen,

I suspected that the 1860 is at least as accurate as most modern guns, but as my handgun experience is quite small, I was not sure.

Now, how about the '58 Remington? Does the top strap give the '58 an advantage from stability, or is the 1860 as stable as the Remington? ( I do not have a '58, so I cannot compare to my army colt.) Does one design have more potential for accuracy than the other?

Regards,
Loki

 

[CoyoteJoe]

The main difference between Colt & Remington designs is that the Remington comes out of the box with better sights, it's very hard to shoot well with the sights which come on a Colt. But then both types benefit from reworking the sights.
To get the best accuracy from any reproduction C&B revolver requires some work. I expect 1 1/2" groups at 25 yards but I've never had a reproduction revolver do that out of the box. I do find the Colt grip very much better, the Remington grip is cramped and the triggerguard pounds my second knuckle.

 

[curator]

Loki,

Most full-size cap & ball revolvers can shoot about as well (if properly loaded) as modern handguns with the exception of accurized models. To compare the Colt 1860 Army and Remington 1858 Army, the Remington has several advantages in the accuracy department as stated by other posters. The Colt open-top design is better at dealing with cylinder arbor fouling and field stripping/cleaning. To compare the 1860 Army to its predecessor, the 1849 Dragoon, the 1860 does give up some of the accuracy but has superior handling characteristics. The .36 caliber 1851 Navy handles and points as well and is more accurate, but not as powderful.

 

[Leatherbark]

As much as I like the Colt types I have and shoot both. I have read that if you go to a national shoot that all you will see in the winners circle will be guns with top straps. Dont know if that is true.

Bob

 

[ChrisPer]

I am in the process of learning my 1860, giving it a new front sight a yard higher to get it on paper and so forth. Its an Armi san Marco, and not necessarily top flight. If I can get 1 1/2" at 25 yards I will be very satisfied, but so far the indicators are 6".

 

[aeatwood]

Well, Elmer Keith thought they were accurate, and he was pretty persnickety. If you ever come across one of the Lyman or Dixie "Shooters" 1858 for a decent price (< $400) if it is good shape buy it. Much better fitting, gain twist barrel like the originals, and will hold it's own against accurized 1911's. or anything else except free pistols, maybe, and the big singleshots like Contenter, etc.

His first '51 navy, which was his first pistol, period, was said to have had a lightly pitted barrel and shot amazingly well. Original Colts were fitted w/ gain twist barrels, and made as well as humanly possible at the time. The Replica Arms '60's from the 1960's were reputedly very well made, but the Italians are a bit spotty on QC. Generally, all of them are a good bit better now they have gone to CNC manufacturing.

I would guess that the average C&B, whatever that is, could probably hold it's own w/ the average single or double action revolver made today. All of mine but one shoot what I would call really well. I cannot consistently break 1.5" with them, but I can't do that with a cartridge gun either. My eyes just aren't what they used to be. But they will almost always shoot into 2 1/2" from a rest, and if I'm having a good day, a good bit smaller than that.

They do require a good bit of work, both tuning and just shooting. You will not shoot them well until you load them well, and you will not load them well (consistently) until you have loaded them a LOT. (at least that is the case using a flask and an underbarrel rammer) Yes, I have used pre-measured and an arbor press too. I like it, but I also like to take my guns out on the farm, and that means loading from a flask.

 

[Dphar]

It's on an equal footing with anything out there, be it C&B or cartridge. It all depends on the shooter/loader.

And the quality of the gun. Most makers in Italy, including Uberti make 2-3 quality grades.
Price is not always a indication either. Buying repro C&B revolvers unseen is scary.
If I were going to order on it would be from Cimarron. The advent of Cowboy Action Shooting helped this somewhat but I have ordered a C&B direct from Uberti USA that was obviously 2nd quality at least.
I always considers the Remingtons and such to be clumsy. For ergonomics nothing touches the Colt.
The open top Colt is about as fast a gun fighting revolver as there is.
A good Colt is as accurate as most modern cartridge revolvers and better than many.

Dan

 

[Long Johns Wolf]

I don't know about quality grades of replicas but I know that C&B revolvers will be as accurate as modern police or army type issue cartridge pistols, if
# the shooter behind it is doing his/her job AND once
# the inherent flaws of the 19th century design pistols and/or most replicas are eliminated.
To list just a few: undersized chambers compared to groove size dia need to be adjusted to proper dia; too short arbors in colt replicas need to be corrected; POA and POI usually need to be adjusted to shooters needs.
My 2 €-Cents!
Long Johns Wolf

 

[Dphar]

I don't know about quality grades of replicas but I know that C&B revolvers will be as accurate as modern police or army type issue cartridge pistols, if
# the shooter behind it is doing his/her job AND once
# the inherent flaws of the 19th century design pistols and/or most replicas are eliminated.
To list just a few: undersized chambers compared to groove size dia need to be adjusted to proper dia; too short arbors in colt replicas need to be corrected; POA and POI usually need to be adjusted to shooters needs.
My 2 €-Cents!
Long Johns Wolf

Most C&B revolvers do have a Military type zero and will be 6" or more high at 25 yards. Worse with conicals since barrel time is longer.
Chamber dimensions are good to check in any revolver. The last S&W 629 I bought had chamber mouths more like a 44-40, .427 or so.
Having a C&B that is .001" under may not hurt anything. So accuracy check before doing modifications.
Dan

 

[Long Johns Wolf]

Well...I miked chamber mouths and barrel groove dia of some 50 newly made C&B pistols of Colt Walker, Whitneyville Hartford, 1860, Remington NM 1863, R&S 1865 pattern recently. The makers were
Belgium: FAUL/Centaure
Italy: Armi san Paolo, Euroarms, Uberti, 2nd & 3rd gen Colt
Spain: Santa Barbara
Here are some measurements - 1860 pattern (average chambers vs barrel groove dia)
ASP: .445 vs .453
Euroarms: .442 vs .447
FAUL. .445-.446 vs .446
Uberti: .444-450 vs .449-.455
Remington NM 1863 pattern
Euroarms: .441-.442 vs .446-.447
Santa Barbara: .444-.446 vs .443-.449
Walker (3rd gen): .447 vs .452
Whitn. Dragoon (3rd. gen): .450 vs .445 (!)
R&S (accurized): .449 vs. 450
Long Johns Wolf
Uberti: .445-.447 vs .449.-.454
ASP