Is excess powder really blown out?

[George]

Posters in recent threads have expressed the opinion that any gun can burn only a certain amount of powder, depending on barrel length, and that if more is loaded the excess will be blown out of the barrel unburned. It is said to be possible to shoot over a sheet, collect and reuse the powder undamaged. This is an idea that has been around since I got into the hobby almost 50 years ago, and has been repeatedly argued on these boards. It’s actually much older than that, and is described and denied in the literature at least from early 18th century by distinguished experimenters, including the father of ballistics, Benjamin Robins, and the Royal Society. Their conclusion was that that “the powder is completely enflamed before the ball or shot arrives at the mouth of the shortest barrel ever made use of.”

It is my personal belief that this is one of those pesky ideas that is passed down from graybeard to neophyte like religious dogma, never to be questioned, but with no rigorous testing to prove or disprove it.

Is anyone aware of any scientific appraisal that has ever been done regarding this question?

Spence

 

[Carbon 6]

Is anyone aware of any scientific appraisal that has ever been done regarding this question?

I'll send you the info.

 

[Britsmoothy]

Love this paragraph Spence.

"It is my personal belief that this is one of those pesky ideas that is passed down from graybeard to neophyte like religious dogma, never to be questioned, but with no rigorous testing to prove or disprove it. "

It is consumed, just not efficiently. Especially if too course a grade is used! (Uhhohh).
Smokeless is different and some does not ignite but we don't care about that evil stuff here!

B.

 

[Idaholewis]

I have Seen unburned powder Sprinkled in a Long line across the top of a fresh snow. My father and i were shooting together a few years back on an Early morning, The snow was fairly Deep with a Brand new fresh layer across the Top from that night. I trudged my way out and Hung our Targets at Roughly 80 Yards. Dad was loading his Rifle up, his Ole Trusty load of 100 Volume Grains of Goex 2F, A wool over powder Wad, and either a Maxi Ball or a Lyman Plains Bullet. After each Shot i would walk up and Check his Target while he Swabbed and prepared for his next Shot, I happen to notice Powder Sprinkled all over the Snow in a Line? Looked like someone had used a Pepper Shaker in a Straight line for about 20 Yards or a little more, I was kinda shocked at how much there was, I had dad come out and have a Look, he was just as Caught off guard as myself. It was quite obvious that his Rifle was NOT Burning the full 100 Grains of Powder. We were gonna Re Test this with my Chronograph and try to find where Velocity gain Slowed/Stopped, But i have stil not got around to Doing that Test. My Guess is 80, Maybe 90 Grains, The Rest is being blown out the barrel UN BURNED
I shoot Swiss 2 and 3F Powder Exclusively in my Muzzleloaders, I Shot my 5-6 Shots at a different Target, and Complete Different direction so I could check for unburned powder, We could not find 1 Single Flake of my Swiss Powder Across the Snow. My load was between 80 and 95 Grains of Swiss 2F, I have Shot 80 Grains of Swiss 2F in a 10” Pistol (TC Scout) Stil could not find a Single flake of Un burned Powder over Snow. Swiss is MUCH More efficient Powder.
I have stood back and Watched 2 different Shooters using Goex 2F, When they Shoot i see LOTS of Sparks, and Smoking Embers Tumbling to the Ground. When they Shoot my Swiss Powder i see NONE of that, Just a Little Cloud of Smoke. I just recently tried a Can of Goex Olde E 2F, If Someone lived Close enough by Me They Could Have it, and I really mean that! Not even Close to Swiss, My rifles will never See any Form of Goex again

 

[BrownBear]

Once upon a time this came up here.... Okay, about ninety-leven times. Lotta storm and strife over it and everyone got to choose sides and beat on their chests. Purty much fun for some, purty boring for me.

Sooooo, I took a 24" 58 caliber out and loaded it with 140 grains of 1f, then shot it over a tarp. Did that three times running. Folded and spindled the tarp to collect what was there and got about a tablespoon of what looked more or less like unburned powder. Struck a match to it and nothing happened.

Goodenuff for me, so I'll bow out of this now.

 

[smo]

Thanks BB,

Spence, I remember the conversation you are referring too,
I had planned on doing a test the next day similar to what BB described but real life things got me side tracked.

I’ve seen left over deposits on the snow before, I’m not convinced if it’s unburned Powder or ash?

In my mind an “exploision” would detonate the Powder causing it too burn instantly, leaving nothing unburned to be blown out the barrel.

In a short barreled gun loaded heavily,” I “also think, that some of the powder may be blown out of the barrel, but “I” think if it is it will be burned before it hits the ground.

 

[Sparkitoff]

I don't think the left over is unburned "powder". I think the stuff that can burn actually explodes and burns instantly and the left-over is stuff that can't/doesn't burn. I'm no scientist, but I lay terms I think the elements that make up powder help cause the explosion but don't necessarily all burn. The stuff that doesn't burn up in the explosion is left behind.

 

[hanshi]

Excess powder - whatever that is - is blown out of the barrel about like all that unburned natural gas gets blown out of a house during an explosion. Really, now.

 

[azmntman]

Well I have never formed an opinion but per BrownBear.....I really dont know how any powder will NOT be burned with the 2 foot line of flame pushing it? Fouling? Remnants of stuff in the powder thats not flamable? I'm not doing it but maybe try different brands of powder in said BrownBear test and see if some powders dont leave as much? Different woods? All I know is if I shoot 80 grains in my .58 I'm smiling for a while, bump up to 140 and I'm sorta smiling (looks like one, really a grimace) so I know more than 80 grains got burned up.

 

[curator]

Probably no "unburned" powder survives the fireball that accompanies the projectile as it exits the barrel. However, there is a lot of evidence that at some point, increasing the powder charge results in smaller velocity gains. More powder beyond what is optimum in a particular bore size and with a specific weight projectile does add to the weight of the bullet and so increases pressure, recoil, and to a small extent, velocity. A heavily compressed load will perform differently than one that is not compressed. An optimal load provides efficiency and economy and is often the most accurate one. (although not always)

 

[waarp8nt]

We were gonna Re Test this with my Chronograph and try to find where Velocity gain Slowed/Stopped

I would be interested in hearing the results. It would be nice if there was a fresh snow to see if there was any unburned residue at the point of peak efficiency. I bet there will still be residue and it's simply a by product of Goex's manufacturing processes.

 

[longcruise]

According to the mad monk bp leaves a percentage of ash around 45%. My guess is it's gonna end up laying on the snow.

Regarding velocity testing, I have done a lot of it and will confirm that there is a point of diminishing returns but in my own testing while they did diminish, they continued to gain velocity with every increase in powder.

An example is a .45 Cal TC Hawken, 28" barrel. Every increase in charge resulted in an increase in velocity up to and including 120 grains of Scheutzen 3f.

A note to critics: over the years I have posted other chronograph data and it seems to inspire some to go off the rails apparently over the disregard for "tradition". I've read all that stuff and am unmoved and unrepentant.

 

[Okie Hog]

IMO: Excessive powder burns outside the barrel. Have someone fire the gun at night. If the muzzle flare is longer than 18-24 inches the charge is excessive.

 

[longcruise]

I have always thought that too. No way unburned powder is going to survive the fireball.

 

[M. De Land]

Posters in recent threads have expressed the opinion that any gun can burn only a certain amount of powder, depending on barrel length, and that if more is loaded the excess will be blown out of the barrel unburned. It is said to be possible to shoot over a sheet, collect and reuse the powder undamaged. This is an idea that has been around since I got into the hobby almost 50 years ago, and has been repeatedly argued on these boards. It’s actually much older than that, and is described and denied in the literature at least from early 18th century by distinguished experimenters, including the father of ballistics, Benjamin Robins, and the Royal Society. Their conclusion was that that “the powder is completely enflamed before the ball or shot arrives at the mouth of the shortest barrel ever made use of.”

It is my personal belief that this is one of those pesky ideas that is passed down from graybeard to neophyte like religious dogma, never to be questioned, but with no rigorous testing to prove or disprove it.

Is anyone aware of any scientific appraisal that has ever been done regarding this question?

Spence

You may be right Spence,I have not tested it with black powder but I know for a fact it is true of smokeless as I see it every year in our winter shoots. Could be ash on the snow in front of black powder guns. Big powder charges make more ash.

 

[hanshi]

A false assumption embraced by quite a few is that charge increases always give velocity increases, though they may not be uniform increases. Fact is, velocity is NOT anywhere near linear for each powder increase. Increases (velocity) may be fairly uniform a few times but the next 5 grain increase can also give a blistering speed bump-up or give less speed than the lower charge fired previously. In my .40 an additional 5 grains of powder, 35grns to 40grns, gave nearly 250 fps more velocity. Velocity increases in jumps and starts and sometimes loses fps with more powder. A chronograph is usually needed to enable a shooter to "see" what is actually occurring.

 

[necchi]

According to the mad monk bp leaves a percentage of ash around 45%.

I'm glad someone else knows the works and words of Bill Knight.

Spence, if memory serves me right Bill Knight as the mad monk shared his knowledge/opinion of this very topic on the American Long Rifles forum several years ago.
Basically he poo-pooed the idea of un-burnt powder being left, and as a few have said here already,, there is/was a residue of large particle that is left and can be found down-range of the muzzle on snow or a sheet/cloth. He attributes that large particle to poor quality powders.
Those "poor quality" powders could/can be attributed too shoddy manufacture and/or random storage issues of excessive heat or high moisture.
(remember 15yrs or so ago when there was the Goex quality issues?)
But he stated that it was not actually "un-burnt",, just large pieces of left over carbon from compromised powders on the market

 

[necchi]

curator mentioned it too;

Velocity increases in jumps and starts and sometimes loses fps with more powder.

Your right. There is a "point of diminishing return".
That means you can continue to increase one variable of the load like the powder charge but at a certain point the "gain" from that increase is no longer available or seen. And as you say, can start to cause a decrease. Usually because of a failure of the other parts of the load.
That's the fun of muzzle loading,, I make the load,, I get the accuracy from my efforts.
Increasing powder charge, aka: Magnum-itise,, usually relates to lost accuracy rapidly.

 

[Black Hand]

The presence of unburnt powder could be easily determined. Shoot over a sheet, collect the ejecta and try to set it a-light. Unburnt powder should flash and carbon won't really do too much...

 

[8 BORE]

SHOOT IT IN THE DARK
YOU WILL FIND OUT