Is it a 1750s Rifle?

[hawkeye1755]

Just looked at Eric Kettenburgs website and found this interesting article:
Is it a 1750s Rifle?

Here is the link: Link

:hatsoff:

 

[tg]

I would not argue with Eric if he says it is what a 1750 rifle could look like, he is likely as close as anyone on early gun traits, we can only speculate untill a dated specimin pops up.

 

[torn moc]

I would not argue with Eric either...

 

[Doc Rogers]

Good Morning UT!

I asked the same thing a while ago.
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/...d/215588/post/507872/hl//fromsearch/1/#507872

Great minds think alike :thumbsup:

Doc

 

[flintriflesmith]

I'm not sure why he would put a brass box on a 1750 era rifle. The oldest dated longrifle with a brass box is 1771.

A brass box could have been around but I'm sure a wood box would be more typical in 1750.

Gary

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Who cares? I WANT it!!!!!

 

I won't auger with him either. If he wants to think this is a 1750's longrifle. Then, yep! It's a 1750's Bedford style longrifle. Look at the extreme drop in the butt. That's a dead give away. :rotf:

Straighten half of the drop and put a sliding wood box on that gun and then I could be persuaded that it could be a 1750's rifle.
Beautiful craftsmanship any way you look at it.

 

[flaming canvas]

Who cares? I WANT it!!!!!

It was on TOTW around Christmas with a $6000 price tag. I got a chance to handle it in their showroom, but I didn't like the feel of it. Seemed like too much drop in the stock.

 

[kettenburg]

Thnak you VERY much for the kind comments guys - I very much appreciate it. I would personally appreciate MORE argument as I think I may thrive upon it. It also shakes things up down and out of the woodwork. Most of this early stuff is interpretational anyway, but I try to educate myself and work accordingly.

Gary I used the brass box, this specific brass box, because most of this rifle is based - some loosely, some very accurately - upon the so-called 'musicians rifle' or 'Heinnerich Fesler' rifle, depending upon how you want to look on it. That's the name on the European lock anyway, unless the guy on the same name - the only guy of the same name on the immigration lists - who arrived very early (ca. 1730 in Philly from slightly ginned up memory, + or -, already 50+ years of age) was a maker (I doubt it), in which case the rifle mey be even earlier... I copied the cheek and cheek carving exactly, in fact most of the carving (tang also) but got a little fancier w/ things like the cheek star. The box is a copy of the Fesler rifle cast box (not the engraving, but the box itself and especially the release mechanism) and the original rifle has the date of 1756 and 'NJ' scratched-on the box by an owner. There is NO reason to dispute this date, especially given the family history, save if one wants the rifle to fit a specific timeline or maker which this date screws up. The sling hanger holes on the original also suggest campaign use, even more suggestive.

I have no idea who made the original rifle. I have a gut feel that there is some connection w/ the maker of RCA 17, which also appears to have a 55-57 date depending upon how you inerpret the barrel marking, which may be a re-used barrel anyway? Maybe I'm off base but that's my tak, can;t quite put my finger on it but I feel it. Bottom line is as yet we just don't know but it is most enjoyable as a gunmaker to speculate.

!!!

 

[kettenburg]

Ps, this piece hs never been up at TOTW. Not sure what you handled? but it was not this. This went straight to customer.

Pss - Undertaker, if you are in Germany, might turn up something interesting if you look around a bit and see if you can find arms of any type with either lock or barrel marking 'Heinnerich Fesler' or 'T. Heinnerich Fesler.' May surprise us all!!!!

 

[hawkeye1755]

Good Morning UT!

I asked the same thing a while ago.
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/...d/215588/post/507872/hl//fromsearch/1/#507872

Great minds think alike :thumbsup:

Doc

Sorry Doc, overlooked your thread.I think i had other thinks in mind at that time. :hmm:

:hatsoff:

 

[hawkeye1755]

Pss - Undertaker, if you are in Germany, might turn up something interesting if you look around a bit and see if you can find arms of any type with either lock or barrel marking 'Heinnerich Fesler' or 'T. Heinnerich Fesler.' May surprise us all!!!!

Did you know the region, where this guy was coming from?
:hatsoff:

 

[Vaino]

If I'm not mistaken there's presently a Berks LR by Kettenburg on Tow's consignment sales. Saw the rifle when I was at TOW and the incised carving is masterful and artistic to say the least......Fred

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Yep, there is a .45 by Eric on Track's site, but it doesn't look much like this one though. Either one would make me happy, but the earlier one is more to my taste--I just seem genetically predisposed towards the older rifles.

 

[hawkeye1755]

If I'm not mistaken there's presently a Berks LR by Kettenburg on Tow's consignment sales. Saw the rifle when I was at TOW and the incised carving is masterful and artistic to say the least......Fred

You mean this one?

Take a look at his website for much more better pics, and read his articles.
Link

Articles
Link

:hatsoff:

 

[flaming canvas]

Ps, this piece hs never been up at TOTW. Not sure what you handled? but it was not this. This went straight to customer.

Pss - Undertaker, if you are in Germany, might turn up something interesting if you look around a bit and see if you can find arms of any type with either lock or barrel marking 'Heinnerich Fesler' or 'T. Heinnerich Fesler.' May surprise us all!!!!

Eric,

I guess it looked the something like the one in the picture, and it's been about 4 months since I was there. No insult intended as your workmanship is something I can only dream of doing. The design might fit another person just fine, but it wasn't right for me.

Roger

 

[kettenburg]

Roger I never took it as an insult a'tall. Thanks very much for the kind comments!

Undertaker - I believe the Fesler/Fessler in question may be Swiss. Stockel lists one or two in Switzerland but no details given. Being in Europe, you are in a far better position than I to find any such markings that may remain in museums or other private collections. There were some Fesler/Fessler immigrants here ca. 1750-60 w/ curious and suggestive names (this is a whole different story in an of itself) but personally I have yet to see any evidence of gunsmithing activity and as yet no Henry/Heinrichs of the proper period w/ documented gun ties.

 

[hawkeye1755]

Eric,
That will not be easy.Searched some european Auction-houses with no results.Is it possible to show me a pic of this European lock with the name?
Are you sure that he comes from Switzerland?

Andreas
:hatsoff:

 

[kettenburg]

Unfortunately I'm not at liberty to publicize any photos. And, I'm not positive at all that he may have been Swiss. Could have been German or French for all I know! Stockel notes a Fessler, no first name, in Bern ca. 1750. This was really the only guy I found within Stockel who could potentially fit. He also noted a P. Fesler in 'Romont,Vaud' I think also Swiss ca. 1750 - possibly a relation? The name I'm looking for is spelled on the lock Heinnerich Fesler and the lock is ca. 1750-60 most likely and very definitely a 'European quality' lock. Keep your eyes and ears open if you don't mind! I'm working on some American folks of the same surname but thus far nothing convincing without a huge speculative and somewhat irreponsible leap. Thanks!