Is that a Hawken?

[appalichian hunter]

Wonder if the above rifle could of been a presentation rifle, pretty fancy for a utility weapon.

 

[OldMaineWoodsman]

Here is my rifle built by Brant Selb during a recent trip to the Adirondacks.

 

[OldMaineWoodsman]

Here is an image of the locks of a Bridger rifle, and the Kit Carson rifle. Both locks appear to have remnants of color case.

 

[OldMaineWoodsman]

As a side note, I probably learned more about Hawken rifles from Don Stith than any of the published works.

 

[Jim Wag]

As a side note, I probably learned more about Hawken rifles from Don Stith than any of the published works.

Hi Old MW

If you please
What is the coolest thing you learned from Don Stith?
I've heard great reviews
And I'm looking forward to talking to him soon!

Jim in La Luz

 

[Dale Lilly]

So long as we are on this subject. I have a Uberti Hawken made for The Log Cabin shop. I have looked at the Santa Fe Hawken [Allen] and see no real difference between them. Am I missing something. Oh yea, mine is .53 caliber and I use a .520 ball. Polecat

 

[plmeek]

...I don't think that there is any standard to a "Hawken" rifle. Like most, I took everything in the late John Baird's books as gospel. We were told that they had browned iron barrels and fittings, thick stocks, and large calibers. Some of that is true. However we now know that there really was no standard. I think they manufactured whatever a buyer ordered or wanted. I looked at some of the original rifles at the Buffalo Bill Center of the West and some clearly have remnants of blued barrels and color-case fittings. I was lucky to handle an original in a private collection and it was .40 caliber. I'm not aware of any original flintlock rifles. The Hawken brothers really liked the percussion system, and also admired the English sporting rifles that were beginning to appear.

They may have been influenced by those...My rifle is an 1840 style LH .54 caliber percussion, made by Brant Selb of Bend, Oregon. Pretty sure Jake & Sam didn't make left hand guns, but who really knows? They are not talking anymore. If every mountain man, trapper, and adventurer heading West had a Hawken, why do so few survive?

I agree that there was no standard regards to Hawken rifles in the modern sense of a standard. I tried to make a point in my first post in this thread that Jake and Sam were in business for over 30 years and that it is natural that their rifles changed over that time. In addition, all their rifles were individually made, so no two are exactly alike. They did follow a pattern, though, and they do have recognizable characteristics.

It's not fair to be too critical of John Baird's books. Baird was the first to publish a serious study of Hawken rifles. In that sense he was a pioneer in the field. All previous writers' work tended to be fluff pieces that repeated myths about Hawken rifles. Even though Baird's first book was published in 1968, he wrote the material years earlier and first published it as a series of articles in Muzzle Blasts starting in February, 1967. Baird admitted that a lot of what he wrote was speculation and subject to change as new information and guns came to light, and he welcomed that. But he got a lot right, too. There is a tendency in our culture to be critical of things and just point out what is wrong without acknowledging what is right.

As far as brown versus blue and color case hardening, we just have a handful of Hawken rifles that still exhibit much of their original finishes. We can draw some conclusions from them, but statistically, the sampling is too small to say they represent the total population of rifles the Hawken brothers made.

Case hardening is the exception. Up to about 1870, all locks were made from soft iron. They all were case hardened to be wear resistant. Prior to the middle of the 19th century color in the case hardening wasn't important to gunmakers and their customers and the locks were typically polished bright after case hardening or left a dark gray blue. Eventually, tastes changed to where some color, blues and greys, were desirable and we see this on the Hawken rifles that still have some original finish. But most of these are late rifles made in the 1850's. Early J&S Hawken rifles from the first half of the 1830's may have had the color polished off the locks. We don't really know.

Blue versus brown on the barrel is also not really determined. Again, a handful of rifles clearly have blued barrels, but the number are statistically insignificant. It doesn't mean all Hawken barrels were blued. Surviving records of rifles ordered by the fur companies show that most barrels on trade rifles were left bright. Brown barrels were the next most frequent finish on trade rifles with blue barrels being the most expensive and less frequently ordered.

People have different tastes and like to have choices, so it would be natural for the Hawken brothers to cater to those varying tastes and offer rifles with bright, brown, and blue barrels just like the fur companies did. Some would say that there is no evidence that they made rifles with any other barrel finish than blue. The problem with that is any of these barrel finishes that are exposed to the elements for over 150 years will develop a rust brown patina naturally. Looking at an antique rifle today that has an rusted brown patina on the barrel doesn't tell us a thing about it original finish. The question remains open as to whether all Hawken barrels were finished with blue barrels.

The owner of this Tryon rifle posted this on another forum. It's a higher quality rifle, but not a presentation grade, and the owner dates it to about 1830. The barrel has a translucent tan or light brownish patina. This rifle is in amazing condition with minimal use and minimal exposure to the elements. The translucent nature of the patina suggests to me that it is the result of aging on an original bright or bare metal finish. It certainly wasn't originally a blued finish or a rust brown finish. (You should be able to click on the image and it will open up on the hosting site where you can enlarge it and look closely at the details.)



By the way, your Brant Selb Hawken looks really nice.

 

[plmeek]

So long as we are on this subject. I have a Uberti Hawken made for The Log Cabin shop. I have looked at the Santa Fe Hawken [Allen] and see no real difference between them. Am I missing something. Oh yea, mine is .53 caliber and I use a .520 ball. Polecat

Yes, Polecat, your rifle is the same as the Uberti made Santa Fe Hawken that Leonard Allen started importing under his Western Arms Corp. I've written up the full history here if you are interested. A number of different companies continued to import the Uberti Hawken after Western Arms Corp. was forced to close, including Log Cabin Shop, Track of the Wolf, and Cimarron F.A. Dixie Gun Works still listed it in their 2004 catalog. The total number of finished rifles and kits that Uberti made probably exceed 10,000.

 

[OldMaineWoodsman]

I didn't mean to be critical of Mr. Baird. He opened the door and interest in Hawken rifles for many of us. His books belong on the shelf of any student of firearms history. Baird also brought us the old 'Buckskin Report' magazine. His writings inspired and sold an awful lot of Hawken replicas. I was just trying to make the point that back in the day, if it wasn't browned, had a 1" barrel across the flats, and a large caliber it wasn't a historically accurate Hawken.

 

[Dale Lilly]

I am getting an education … again ...Phil, I read that post some time ago. However read is a wrong choice. I scanned it, but today I read it. So my education continues and I am deeply indebted to all of you who have responded to this thread. Bless you all. Polecat

 

[Dude]

I know, this might be a little off topic, but since there are so many experts following this discussion here goes: Did the ornate swirls on the fancy trigger guards have a practical purpose or purely ornamental?

 

[plmeek]

They were purely decorative, Dude. They are probably connected to the Rococo designs that European and later Colonial gunsmiths used to decorate guns with. Kind of mini volutes.

 

[plmeek]

Ok, I get ya now, OldMaineWoodsman.

Kinda along the same lines, this is one of my favorite cartoons from that period. It was published in March 1974 Buckskin Report.

 

[firestick]

I am loving this thread. Learning so much. Thank you gentlemen.

 

[Zonie]

I didn't mean to be critical of Mr. Baird. He opened the door and interest in Hawken rifles for many of us. His books belong on the shelf of any student of firearms history. Baird also brought us the old 'Buckskin Report' magazine....

I'm not disagreeing but for the newcomers to reading about the Hawken rifles, if you are thinking of buying some books, go ahead and buy John D. Baird's book, "Hawken Rifle The Mountain Man's Choice".
His second book, "FIFTEEN YEARS IN THE HAWKEN LODE" isn't worth the money. IMO, there is very little in the book that gives any real information about the Hawken and I was very disappointed with it.

If you want to buy another good book that deals with the mountain man's rifles, buy, "THE PLAINS RIFLE", by Charles E. Hanson Jr.
It isn't limited to the Hawken and discusses several other gunsmiths in the St. Louis area who also made excellent plains rifles.

 

[Notchy Bob]

Somebody needs to reprint Baird's books. I missed the opportunity to get them when they were still in print, and later bought used copies in decent condition. Zonie is right in that Fifteen Years in the Hawken Lode does have a whole different flavor, when compared to Hawken Rifles, but I'm still glad to have a copy of it.

Charles Hanson's Plains Rifle is another must-have classic, in my opinion. The photos in it don't really follow the text, the images are poor quality, and some of the information may be dated, but it is still one of the foundation references in this particular field.

Notchy Bob

 

[plmeek]

For the serious Hawken student that wants more than just a picture book, I would add The Hawken Rifle: Its Place In History by Charles E. Hanson, Jr. to Zonie's and Notchy's list of books. This book is still in print unlike the other books and available from the Museum of the Fur Trade or from Track of the Wolf for about $15.

 

[BillinOregon]

I have or have had both of Dr. Hanson's books and recommend them, along with Baird's first. Phil, really appreciate the effort you put in to share your extensive knowledge on this subject. Thanks to all who contributed to this thread. I've got to get up to Cody one day -- and revisit another favorite destination, the Museum of the Fur Trade in Chadron, NE.

 

[Notchy Bob]

For the serious Hawken student that wants more than just a picture book, I would add The Hawken Rifle: Its Place In History by Charles E. Hanson, Jr. to Zonie's and Notchy's list of books. This book is still in print unlike the other books and available from the Museum of the Fur Trade or from Track of the Wolf for about $15.

Agreed! Essential reading for the Hawken enthusiast, and we are lucky that it's still in print.

I also agree with BillinOregon... Mr. Meek's knowledge and willingness to share it are much appreciated.

Another great book which I have not seen referenced much is Victor Paul's Missouri Gunsmiths to 1900. This has a good section on the Hawken brothers, but it also pulls together a considerable body of information regarding the Hawkens' competitors. James Whisker authored a similar book, but in my opinion the Victor Paul book is better illustrated, easier to use, has fewer typographical errors, and several useful appendices. A good book for "plains rifle" enthusiasts to have.

Notchy Bob

 

[Jim Wag]

Phil Meek and Notchy Bob
Are costing me a fortune on books

Money well spent
I love these old guns

Jim in La Luz