Is this a Revolutionary War era rifle?

[BPW1984]

Hello, I am brand new to this forum, since I just inherited a muzzleloader that has been passed down in the family. I was hoping for some help in identifying what this rifle is.

Here’s the background: according to family lore, it was a rifle used during the Revolutionary War. I don’t have any documentation of that but I can verify it has been passed down for at least the last 90 years.

In doing some online searching, I noticed that this is a percussion cap not a flintlock, but I also read that many old flintlocks were refitted with percussion later. The stock and butt plate look like Brown Bess, but the metal design opposite the hammer is a design I have only seen on a “German Jaegger” rifle being sold online (I did a Google Image search...). So I am left with no idea of what this rifle is or what time period is is actually from.

Any help at all would be very much appreciated!

 

[2 shots]

hi, i believe you have a english trade gun. i have the same piece. dont know time period on this one, maybe someone can help us out on that. mine was also converted

 

[BPW1984]

hi, i believe you have a english trade gun. i have the same piece. dont know time period on this one, maybe someone can help us out on that. mine was also converted

Thanks for the fast reply. I’ve now been looking at photos of English trade guns and their design looks just like the rifle I have.

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
I believe you have a British trade gun by Ketland from the very end of the 18th century or early 19th century. It is not likely a Rev War gun. There should be some proof marks on the barrel at the breech. The lock was originally flint and there may be some markings on the tail of the lock plate. It would be interesting to see if "Ketland & Co." is engraved there.

dave

 

[oldwood]

It's very English , r/r suggests it's a smooth bore musket , definitely was a flint lock before converted to percussion. Stock shape plus the other evidence seems to indicate English civilian musket.............oldwood

 

[rich pierce]

Agree, not a “rifle” by any means. A great example of a higher grade trade gun/lower grade export fowling piece. A really fine heirloom. Obviously converted to percussion during its useful life.

 

[BPW1984]

Agree, not a “rifle” by any means.

I apologize for using the wrong term. Thanks for your input.

 

[BPW1984]

Hi,
I believe you have a British trade gun by Ketland from the very end of the 18th century or early 19th century.

Thank you for this. I have found pictures online now of other Ketland guns with identical side plates and markings. I will check for proofs on the barrel.

 

[BPW1984]

These are the barrel proof marks. Nothing on the lock plate.

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
Those look to be Birmingham proof marks after 1813 but I cannot tell for sure. I think the maker's mark in the middle is for Thomas Ketland.

dave

 

[oldwood]

This comment is not meant in a derogatory way , but the 8-32 stove bolt w/ square nut in the position of the front lock bolt is priceless. Has to be a garish American touch on a fine old British musket. In the positive , the stove bolt probably preserved the elegant dragon side plate and lock from being lost.

 

[Eterry]

That's a fine heirloom to inherit and to pass on.

Onw word of caution....PLEASE don't be tempted to "CLEAN" it up. A dry rag, then lightly oil it and call it good. Trust me, the more you alter its appearance the more the value and aesthetics decrease.

 

[Eterry]

This comment is not meant in a derogatory way , but the 8-32 stove bolt w/ square nut in the position of the front lock bolt is priceless. Has to be a garish American touch on a fine old British musket. In the positive , the stove bolt probably preserved the elegant dragon side plate and lock from being lost.

Hang around a country gunsmith shop and see what homemade remedies are applied to firearms. I'm glad someone didn't take the lock and sideplate off and put it in a drawer...never to be seen again.

 

[oldwood]

Once had a friend that loved to frequent flea markets. I would trade m/l gun work for the parts he used to bring me. Some of the stuff that turned up was amazing. I tried to repurpose most of it into the m/l guns I was making. Most of us have little time for perusing flea meets , and I know a lot of good parts are going into drawers , and collections of stuff instead of being rightfully used. .............oldwood

 

[rickystl]

Nice heirloom. Congratulations. Like mine, it appears to be in the condition most our found. Please take the advise above and not attempt to alter it. It's one of those guns we often say: "If only it could talk" as to where it's been.

I too am the lucky caretaker of a similar gun I acquired from a retired co-worker. I posted this gun a few years ago on this Forum. With the talent on this Forum we were able to conclude that I had an original "Belgium Copy" of an English Northwest Trade Fusil. The lock plate has the so-called Fox in the Coffin vs. Fox in the Circle.

Again, great family inheritance.

Rick

 

[oldwood]

Very nice Rick.............oldwood

 

[BPW1984]

Thanks, everyone, for your help and kind words. I appreciate all the insights and clues. This is an awesome community to share so freely their combined knowledge.

 

[dave_person]

Hi BPW,
One thing I failed to mention is that the barrel proof marks could either be private Tower proof marks done in London and later (1796) Birmingham, or Birmingham proof house marks. I cannot see enough details to tell the difference. The marks are significant however, because they help date the barrel at least and probably the whole gun. The Tower proofed privately made firearms during 1751-1805, I believe. The marks are a crown over crossed scepters and stamped twice on the barrel. For years they were thought to be Ketland's private proof house marks but there is no evidence that they ever had such a facility and later scholarship revealed those marks to be the private Tower marks. Ketland guns usually had Tower proofs and that is why the mark was erroneously associated with Thomas Ketland. Before a proof house was built in Birmingham (1796), it was cheaper for Ketland to ship his barrels to London for proofing and have them picked up at the Tower wharfs than to deliver them to the London Gunmaker's Guild proof house within the city. In 1813, the Birmingham proof house was given its own distinctive marks, which had a crown over crossed scepters but also the letters "B", "P", and "C" arranged within the crossed scepters. There is no evidence that Thomas Ketland exported guns to America before the Rev War. Indeed, if your lock has T. Ketland & Co engraved on it , it would indicate an earliest possible date for the gun in 1785. If the gun was from 1785-1805 it could be marked for T. Ketland and would have Tower proof marks. However, Thomas Ketland retired in 1800 and Ketland guns after that date are usually marked for William Ketland. If the gun was made after 1813, it would have Birmingham marks. Because the barrel appears to be have Thomas Ketland's mark, I think the likely conclusion is the gun was made between 1785-1800 and has private Tower proof marks. A good authority is Joe Puleo's paper in Man At Arms magazine about the Ketland family.

dave

dave

 

[plmeek]

Dave Person added another post while I was typing this one, so we have some duplicate information between them.

I agree with Dave Person and Rich Pierce that the OP's gun is a Ketland fowler that was sometimes traded to Indians. The sideplate is very specific to Ketland fowlers--kind of like some patch box designs used by American gunmakers.

Since the markings on the lock have been corroded away, we can't tell if it was a "KETLAND & Co.", "T. KETLAND & Co.", or "W. KETLAND & Co." gun. Surviving guns with that style of sideplate are known with all these marks on the locks.

Ketland & Co. was in business from 1785 to 1800. It was a partnership with Thomas Ketland I, William Walker, and William Ketland, oldest son of Thomas I.

W. Ketland & Co. was in business from 1800 to 1831. It was a partnership with William Ketland and James Allport. William died in 1804, but his business was continued by his widow and partners.

T. Ketland & Co. was used by Thomas I at various times. He may have used it before 1785, prior to the partnership with William Walker, and certainly used it after 1800 and before his death in 1816. After the death of Thomas I, his second son, Thomas II, continued to run his father's businesses and also used the company name of T. Ketland & Co.

Here is an example of the fowler with "KETLAND & Co." marked on the lock and a sideplate of same pattern as the OP's gun.

Here is the sideplate on the "KETLAND & Co." marked gun.

It has pre-1813 Birmingham proof marks with the "TK" barrel maker mark.

This next one is an example of a fowler marked "W. KETLAND & Co." with the same style of sideplate.

The proof marks are the pre-1811 Tower Private Proof marks. These may be the same proof marks on the OP's gun.

Here are a couple of "T. KETLAND & Co." marked fowlers in Jim Gordon's collection. They both have the pre-1811 Tower Private Proof marks.

It's debatable whether these are true "Indian trade guns". These sideplates have been found in archeological sites in Missouri and in the South, but they appear to have been made primarily for the civilian trade in America. The US government purchased some for their factories or trading posts during the War of 1812 and some other merchants and independent fur traders may have traded them to Indians, but not on a large scale.

Here is what James Hanson wrote about them in The Firearms of the Fur Trade, pages 290 and 291.

I believe there is a typo in the next to last sentence above. I believe Hanson meant to say, "In Fact, these civilian weapons were proved at the military proof house near the Tower of London, prior to the construction of the Birmingham Proof House in 1813." There was no military proof house in Birmingham. The Ordnance Proof House was in London near the Tower.

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
You also find that side plate on New England fowlers quite often. It was popular during the last years of the 1700s and the early 1800s.

dave