Is Traditional Muzzleloading "Elitist"

[XXX]

The idea for a seperate thread for this came to me as a way to expand upon AKAPennyPincher's thread without getting that discussion off topic. I suppose this is mainly directed at the subject of hunting, but I have seen elitist comments made about period re-enacting and living history participation as well. So what do you guys think? Are we too elitist and is that a good thing or a bad thing?

 

[Robert Egler]

I think that both 'elitist' and ”˜traditional muzzleloading’ are hard terms to define well enough to say one way or the other. It depends on exactly what people mean when they say ”˜elitist’ and ”˜traditional’ muzzleloading.

I do think that some of us believe that ”˜traditional muzzleloading’ is better than hunting and shooting any other way.

But that brings the question of what IS “traditional muzzleloading?” Is it traditional enough if you use a sidelock gun with a wood stock, but dress in modern camouflage? Or do you have to have appropriate clothing to go along with that if you’re going to say it is traditional? And how ”˜period correct’ does it have to be to count as ”˜traditional’?

When you look up Elitist you get various definitions. For example:

1. Practice of or belief in rule by an elite.
2. Consciousness of, or pride in belonging to, a select or favored group.
3. The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources.
3a.The sense of entitlement enjoyed by such a group or class.
3b.Control, rule, or domination by such a group or class.

Certainly traditional muzzleloading is not Elitist under definitions 1 or 3. And definition 2 is pretty vague. By that definition the Marines are elitist. So are most high school football teams.

 

[BrownBear]

Elitist is always a pretty pointed accusation. I've always found it more informative to look at the accuser than at the accused. More often than not, they're spinning. It's just like politics, as if we didn't have enough of that already.

"Spin" is nothing more than lies and half truths trying to cover something about the spinner (or liar, as I prefer). And calling someone an elitist is spin.

 

[Black Hand]

Elite-ism is in the eye of the beholder....

Some of us go to extremes to satisfy our own personal goals and standards, and are then branded elitists because we don't conform. This gives others who are jealous/envious a reason to ridicule us and put us down for the reason that they somehow have been made to feel inadequate (in their own mind).

Personally, I don't care if I am branded an elitist. I do my own thing and try to help all who need help. After all words are cheap and it is better to lead by example....

 

[XXX]

Good points. Your example of the Marines is the same agrument I was going to make that there are such things as good elitism and bad elitism. Military or other forms of elitism where the elite status is obtained through achievement or other demonstrated excellence (raw talent in some sports) , or adherence to some form of ideal, as opposed to the elitism of mere exlusivity based upon who you know or how much you make or some other factor beyond your control. You managed to put your finger on my contention a mere 5 mins after I opened the thread, so you get the prize. Why don't we take your advise though and say for the sake of discussion that traditional is the same definition as we use for this forum and equipment and dress do not come into the discussion unless someone has a specific point to make.

 

[Stophel]

No. An "elitist" thinks you can't do any better. A reenactor who believes in things being "period correct" thinks you can.
:grin:

 

[bingo1952]

I think eccentric is probably a better definition than elitist and I include myself in that group. Now PC/HC is not nearly as important to me as it is to some. I am looking for a 'flavor' not so much trying to relive a past that is nevermore to be.

 

[deadin]

An "elitist" thinks you can't do any better.

Wouldn't that make the proponents of modern "in-line" muzzle loaders "elitists"? They must think that their rifles are better than traditional or they wouldn't be using them.
Next time a "modern" makes elitist remarks, just throw it back in his face. :wink:

 

[Black Hand]

Wouldn't that make the proponents of modern "in-line" muzzle loaders "elitists"? They must think that their rifles are better than traditional or they wouldn't be using them.

Many of them don't know anything else because the in-lines are all that are being peddled in the magazines. Sounds like a good teaching opportunity.....

 

[Claude Mathis]

:2
Being "elitist" is an attitude or perception by an individual. The 'sport' of traditional muzzleloading (or any activity) cannot be elite, but individuals can see themselves as elitists. i.e. A lot of folks think they (or their activities) are better than others, for any number of reasons.

 

[Black Hand]

:2
Being "elitist" is an attitude or perception by an individual. The 'sport' of traditional muzzleloading (or any activity) cannot be elite, but individuals can see themselves as elitists. i.e. A lot of folks think they (or their activities) are better than others, for any number of reasons.

....or are perceived by others as such.

 

[Bountyhunter]

Thank you for that. Those same people you speak of see them selves as being better than others no matter what they are involved in.

 

[J.D.]

According to dictionary.com;

elitism
3 dictionary results for: elitist

”“noun
1. practice of or belief in rule by an elite.
2. consciousness of or pride in belonging to a select or favored group.
[Origin: 1950”“55; elite + -ism]

””Related forms
e·lit·ist, noun, adjective


1. The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources.

2.
a. The sense of entitlement enjoyed by such a group or class.
b. Control, rule, or domination by such a group or class.


e·lit'ist adj. & n.

elitist

noun
someone who believes in rule by an elite group [ant: egalitarian]

So, are those who conduct research and strive to be as historically correct as possible elitists?

According to the second definition in the first category, yes.

2. consciousness of or pride in belonging to a select or favored group.

I would also add that an elitist holds himself to a higher standard. Not to lord it over those who some might feel, or feel themselves to be lacking in authenticity, but to have the personal pride and dedication to excel in the hobby.

So from that definition, absolutely.

 

[Black Hand]

Those same people you speak of see them selves as being better than others no matter what they are involved in.

Just to play the devils advocate - Have you ever spoken to these "elitist"?

Sounds like my daughters' logic. When asked about the boy at her bus stop, she replied that he was "mean".
I asked her "why"?
"Because he doesn't talk to anybody." she responds.
"Have you ever talked to him?" I ask..
"No" she says.
"Then how do you know he is mean?"

I have a friend who might be considered an elitist. I have never met someone more happy to help others with their impression. He built a gun for a new guy for free to help him out. He'd give you the shirt off his back to help, yet others stay away because he is perceived as "elitist"....

 

[XXX]

I think BlackHand and BrownBear are very close to how I see it. The slur of being called an elitist in this sporting context (and the fear of being unfairly labled as such), stem from the insecurities of the person likely to make such an accusation rather than any one particular characteristic of the alleged "elite" group. The accusation would only be valid in the case where the elite group did not want anyone outside the group to obtain group status. I think we can all agree that we all welcome more participation in the traditional side and that the lack of this is what we fear. I don't think there would be too many flintlock season particpants in Pennsylvania who would have negative things to say if 50% of the inline hunters picked up a flintlock and took part in that season even if that meant more crowding and that these guys still preferred the inline over the flintlock in the regular ML season.

Speaking directly to your point Claude; I for one do have a preference for my own way of doing things and therefore think (for my own reasons) they are better, but I would only be an elitist in my view if I denied others the opportunity to do the same.

 

[Jumpshot]

Is Traditional Muzzleloading "Elitist"

I'd say no. It depends on the individual. But it also depends on how you define 'traditional'. If we're talking hunting, you've got sidelocks, whether percussion, flint, or earlier types, with real blackpowder and either patched balls or lead conicals, vs. modern muzzleloaders with modern optics and even electronic ignition now, blackpowder substitutes, and modern jacketed/hollow pointed/ballistic tipped/partitioned bullets in sabots. That would be traditional vs. modern. I don't have a problem with people who like modern muzzleloaders, but I think they belong in the general season. It's not a matter of being elitist, it's just a matter of being honest about what the muzzleloader season was intended for when it was created.

If you're talking reenacting, that's a whole different ball game. Those who are into that aspect of the game aren't elitist simply for striving for historical accuracy, although some of them can display an elitist attitude when being overly critical of others' efforts. I've been slammed plenty of times because of my fondness for Pedersoli guns, because although they're traditional type guns, they aren't period correct (on the other hand, I have no qualms about firing right back at someone, and have done so numerous times, over their criticism of my 'historically incorrect' choice; not because I disagree with their own choices, but simply because I despise arrogant people). But I'm not into reenacting, I just enjoy shooting the guns, so it shouldn't matter. But that hasn't stopped some people from criticising me in the past. I would call that an elitist attitude.

So I think this question has two answers, depending on whether you're talking about hunting or reenacting. If reenacting, the question of whether the hobby is elitist depends on the individual in question. Traditional muzzleloading/reenacting itself is not elitist, although there are elitists within it's ranks. But then, the same can be said of any hobby.

If you mean hunting, the problem is many people ignore the original purpose of muzzleloading seasons (usually justifying their position with general statements like "it still loads from the muzzle" :shake: ) so they can take advantage of what was not intended for them. And when the traditionalists try to defend it, they're all labeled 'elitists' and accused of "wanting all the deer for themselves" (guess where I got that quote from), and accused of causing divisions among shooters/hunters, when they aren't the source of the problem in the first place.

The way I see it, those are the two sources of the 'elitist' perception many have of traditional muzzleloading.

 

[BrownBear]

I'm particularly fond of the quote from Winston Churchill about fanatics that crops up frequently in the sidebar here on the site. I think if you change the word "fanatic" to "elitist" it pretty well sums up my position:

"An elitist is someone who can't change their mind and won't change the subject."

 

[ResearchPress]

I think what need's to be considered is how 'inclusive' we are as muzzle loaders.

Are newcomers welcomed? Do they get encouraged to just take up a muzzle loading arm and learn to shoot it? Period clothing to some is just a fancy dress costume to another. Does it really matter if sights are not absolutely authentic for their flintlock, or the finish on their Enfield isn't quite right for the Civil War era?

Without open encouragement to people to take up muzzle loading and then find their own level of enjoyment, muzzle loaders risk being labelled 'elitist' by the newcomer who will soon seek involvement in another sport.

David

 

[shootemup]

Those same people you speak of see them selves as being better than others no matter what they are involved in.

Just to play the devils advocate - Have you ever spoken to these "elitist"?

Sounds like my daughters' logic. When asked about the boy at her bus stop, she replied that he was "mean".
I asked her "why"?
"Because he doesn't talk to anybody." she responds.
"Have you ever talked to him?" I ask..
"No" she says.
"Then how do you know he is mean?"

I have a friend who might be considered an elitist. I have never met someone more happy to help others with their impression. He built a gun for a new guy for free to help him out. He'd give you the shirt off his back to help, yet others stay away because he is perceived as "elitist"....

I think you both make good points. I don't think the sport is inherently "elitist," but there certainly are some elitists in the sport.

I think you'll find that in any group, unfortunately. Some people, who view certain others as being below their class or social status, will always see those others as people they would never choose to associate with. This happens everywhere, public establishments, even church...

On the other hand, I remember a post quite a while back (maybe a year or more) when a person was lamenting a private, juried event in which he had participated. People came out to sight-see, and some wanted to take pictures. Apparently some guy was wandering around wearing cowboy boots and hat and some other comical get-up that I can't recall. One of the "tourists" invited the cowboy guy to get into the picture and thereby unwittingly destroyed the entire presentation these guys had worked so hard to present.

Hard not to sympathize with that guy.

Perception on one side vs. motive on the other, I suppose.

Spot

 

[XXX]

Quite a few excellent posts. Keep them coming.

I think we can summarize our collective thoughts to this point and say that as a rough group we do not view ourselves as elitist, though there is obvious danger in allowing others to view or portray us in that light.