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its legal, but ethical?

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newtothis

40 Cal.
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ok so i traded my cannon (58 cal hawken) for something slightly smaller (ok like half the size), a .38 cal rifle. love the rifle, realy pretty, realy old, and hand made. anyway in my state it is legal to hunt with any primative firearm .36 and larger, but man that is a little ball. admitidly our little swamp deer average about 100 to 120 pounds, and im a decent shot, but it looks like unless you put it through the heart itself or spine or brain, this little pea sized piece of lead would just annoy the deer. thoughts? :confused:
 
boy that's a thuoghy. herd of guys on the frourms here using as small as a .32 and taking deer. but to me I think it's to small for deer. I would at the smallest use a .45 witch I have but never hunted with that gun. I hunt with a .54 haven't gotten a deer with it yet. got 5 elk with it. and if it will work on elk I KNOW it will for deer. black tail deer here or 150-200 pounders. elk are 400-1500 pounds.
 
I have no doubt that a small cal. ball can kill deer size game. At short range. But my concerns
Are that you would have every hard time recovering the targeted game do to lack of shock.
Bleed out might be a bit slower. Allowing it to travel a greater distance.The blood trail might suffer volume or no blood trail at all in thick cover that might make game recovery difficult.
 
newtothis said:
ok so i traded my cannon (58 cal hawken) for something slightly smaller (ok like half the size), a .38 cal rifle. love the rifle, realy pretty, realy old, and hand made. anyway in my state it is legal to hunt with any primative firearm .36 and larger, but man that is a little ball. admitidly our little swamp deer average about 100 to 120 pounds, and im a decent shot, but it looks like unless you put it through the heart itself or spine or brain, this little pea sized piece of lead would just annoy the deer. thoughts? :confused:


To awnser your question.. Ethical? NO.
Some will say "It will do the job if you do your part" or "shot placement" or "I know a guy who kilt a grizley with a .22" And YES you CAN kill a deer with that caliber BUT in my opinion there are SO meny variabls in real hunting situations that would make that little ball less then imediatley fatal on deer and bigger...
Love to see a picture however, it sounds like a GREAT varmint gun! :)
 
Well, the legal part of the question is easy. The ethical part, is on you. I don't have that problem. With an assortment of muzzleloaders from .32 up to .73, I always have a gun for the job. I would never tell anyone what they should or should not hunt with because I assume the best in people, in that, they know their limitations and the limitations of the weapon they choose, have ethical standards, and live by them. The fact that you are asking the question leads me to believe that you do not know the limits of the gun, at least. If you are committed to using it I would suggest you spend a lot of time at the range, to the point where there are NO doubts, about about yourself or the weapon of choice. Course I feel that way no matter the gun, bow, atlatl, spear, or rock, a man might choose.
best of luck to you.
Robby
 
If I may, Robby.
Shoot at the range, yes, and may I add that you do a lot of offhand shooting?
Mike
 
Mike, I probably could have fleshed that out a little more. You are absolutely right. You should practice shooting in all the different positions you might encounter while hunting. Personally, I enjoy shooting off hand more than any other form of practice, but if I ever was any good at it, I am not that good any more, and won't do it while hunting. Like I use to tell my boy's, When I'm sneaking around the woods, I got one eye looking for game, the other is looking for something to use as a rest, Hah! Even if that means, just a tree to lean against. But, thats just me.
Robby
 
What's more ethical, hunting deer with a minimum caliber rifle you know you can shoot with excellent accuracy within 50 yards, or blasting away at deer 100 or more yards out with the largest caliber you can find but haven't shot hundreds (not tens) of times?

The latter happens a lot more than some guys will admit, but we don't discuss that very much. Somebody posts a picture of their deer and their .50, .54, .58, .62, etc., and we all (myself included) belt out our congratulations without ever questioning how well the hunter shoots his/her gun or how much preparation they did before the hunt.

During the past 2 deer seasons I've taken 5 whitetails with a .40 shooting 65 grains of 3f Goex under a .395 rooundball in a .015 cotton patch. Whether or not the caliber is enough to cleanly and ethically take deer is not even a question. I shot through 3 of those deer, never had one go very far after the shot, and I have never lost one with it.

I also pass on more shots than I take, maybe twice as many. My longest shot was about 48 yards, most less than 30. If you aren't willing to do that, then the caliber would not be an ethical choice for you.

Bottom line is this: if YOU think the smaller caliber rifle is too small, then it probably is, for YOU. Hunting with a caliber that you don't have confidence in is certainly not ethical.

BUT before you decide it's not enough, take it out and use it. Use it for small game, like squirrels and rabbits. See how devastating that smaller caliber can be on those tough little squirrels with 30 grains of powder.

Then double that charge and start shooting at telephone books at 50 yards. Make your decision based on YOUR FIRST-HAND EXPRERIENCE, not what somebody tells you.

If someone tells you your rifle is too small for the game you're hunting with it, ask them how they know? If (when) they begin reciting ballistics charts or terminal energy, shock, etc., ask them about their first-hand experience.

Almost none of the people who say your caliber is too small will have any experience with it. If they have no experience with the caliber you are discussing, they are not qualified to tell you it's not enough.

I'll say this - hunting large game with a mimimum legal caliber is not for everyone. You absolutely must be willing to accept the limitations that go along with it, same as any other primitive weapons hunter.

But if you are willing to embrace the added challenge, it can be very satisfying.

Ever hear the phrase "Beware the man with only one gun?" :grin: I don't want to be that guy with only one gun, but there is a reason we've all heard that phrase.

:hatsoff:
Spot
 
wow. this one got alot of replies. and i agree with what everyone says. i will not be trying for deer with it this year as it is a new gun to me and im not as deadly with it as with my other firearms or bows. now im not applauding poaching or bulleyeing unless your family will starve if you dontk, but i grew up out in the middle of nowhere with an outlaw daddy, so im fully awear of what a .22 can do. from 9 to about twelve i never shot at anything that didnt end up on the table. however, i took headshots. so if i missed, the thing wouldnt be hurt, and if i hit, it would die. however i dont do that anymore, as i grew up i realized it isnt right if your life dont depend on it. i know that in time i will be capable of makeing the shot with that gun, but man it would suck to loose a deer because you coulnt get a head or neck shot when you could have takein it with a larger caliber easily. soo maby in a year or so when i know more about the gun, but i believe i'll stick to squirrels and bunnys this year. and i'll get pics up as soon as i can. the barrel is supposedly around a hundred years old or so, but i dont really know. the brass is a little rough and the inletting for the lock wasnt perfect, but over all im thrilled with it. :grin:
 
Robby said:
Mike, I probably could have fleshed that out a little more. You are absolutely right. You should practice shooting in all the different positions you might encounter while hunting. Personally, I enjoy shooting off hand more than any other form of practice, but if I ever was any good at it, I am not that good any more, and won't do it while hunting. Like I use to tell my boy's, When I'm sneaking around the woods, I got one eye looking for game, the other is looking for something to use as a rest, Hah! Even if that means, just a tree to lean against. But, thats just me.
Robby
I enjoy offhand too - but can't do it any more; bum shoulders... Shooting sticks come in handy though.
 
I'm going to separate your question into two questions. As far as the question of ethics, I believe a person can only decide that for himself. That's kind of the nature of ethics, it's a personal standard. The answer to the question of whether or not the ball is large enough to hunt deer, in my opinion, NO, it's just too small, for all the reasons Wattsy mentioned.

Yes, we have all heard the amazing stories of .22's killing huge critters, and .36 cap and ball revolvers taking deer, etc. But, what we NEVER here is stories of all the game that was wounded with these calibers, and walked off after the shot, to die a slow and agonizing death. I'd venture to say the number of botched shots by these under powdered guns is far greater than the number of clean kills. Nobody ever brags about crippling a deer with a .22, they just keep mum about it.

You could be the greatest shot in the world, and have more target discipline than a Marine sniper, and you would still have to contend with all the uncontrollable variables that hinder perfect shot placement. Using an appropriate sized ball compensates for all the little things that make our shots go slightly "high and to the right" of our intended placement.

Just my opinion, Bill.
 
cool. i didnt think it looked big enough. i suppose the point of this post was because the ball looked entirly to small to be very potent. i was just makeing sure the tiny ball didnt have more lethality than i thought.
 
A .36 will cleanly kill a smaller deer (pass through) if shot through the lungs, but you have zero lee way no shoulder blades no leg bones, I would prefer at least a .45. If it is all I had I would use it.
 
I have taken several deer with a .40 and felt this was as small as I cared to go and kept the shots under 50 yds 25-35 is even better, personaly I would rather go to a larger ball than shoot modern conicals and it is hard to find traditional ones for the smaller bores I do not recall any .38 cal Minnie balls being mentioned in anything I have read. I tried to think archery when using the smaller guns, it is not a bad way to approach any traditional ML hunting even with the larger bores if using ball and primitive sights.Many well practiced shooters take Deer with the smaller guns and have for years, it is a matter of choice and knowing your limitations more than the guns, nothing wrong with the bigger bores I have used a .58 for quite a while but I have seen "magnumitis" infect the world of ML hunting over the last 40 years.
 
Many people use a modern 357 mag pistol to take deer out to 100 yards I dont see why a 38 cal rifle cant reach the energy levels of a hand gun. Work up a load and go for it.Limit your shot to what you can shoot into the boiler room with every shot. I would say 50 yards or less.
 
almost all of my hunting spots visibility is limited to fourty or fifty yards anyway. like i say maby next year if i know the gun better and think it can do the dammage needed, but not any time soon. thanks for all the replies guys!
 
Archery distance, say under 40yds, why not?

I would avoid head shots to deer if you can, I,ve seen some deer with jaws hanging off, go for the boiler room, you've killed it when shot there even if it get's away from you.

Brits.
 
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