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Jaeger vs Longrifle

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I was looking at a nice contemporary .54 caliber, Lancaster tonight that sported a 44" barrel and a weight of 8.9 pounds.

I'm sitting here with a contemporary 54 caliber Jaeger with a 31 inch barrel and a weight of 7 pounds.

The longrifle is overweight and clumsy.

The Jaeger is lightweight and quick as a cat to get into action.

Why did the German-American gunmakers transform the handy Jaeger into a clumsy Pennsylvania-Kentucky longrifle???????????
 
blackelm said:
I was looking at a nice contemporary .54 caliber, Lancaster tonight that sported a 44" barrel and a weight of 8.9 pounds.

I'm sitting here with a contemporary 54 caliber Jaeger with a 31 inch barrel and a weight of 7 pounds.

The longrifle is overweight and clumsy.

The Jaeger is lightweight and quick as a cat to get into action.

Why did the German-American gunmakers transform the handy Jaeger into a clumsy Pennsylvania-Kentucky longrifle???????????

I would guess a longer barrel has a longer sight picture, thereby better accuracy capability.

Like a Pistol vs. a carbine, or carbine vs. rifle.

The longer the distance between front and rear sight, the less affect a small move makes on target. Someone else might explain better using MOA.

The limit on that barrel length, I believe, is the human eyesight? And the unwieldy part!
 
Sight radius yes. But also the powders of the day in the colonies needed longer barrels to get the most velocity from that powder.

Just me but I don't care for a shotgun that hangs like a rifle or a rifle that swings like a shotgun. Also the longrifles just look so danged much better.
 
Humm--Well, the German hunters did quite well with short radius sights--so did the 95th Rifles with their Baker rifles, so did the plainsmen with their short barreled Hawkens--so did every marksman after 1860 with their half stocked, short barreled hunting/target rifles.

Powder had noting to do with it.

Pa-Ky longrifles were regressive developments
 
While Germans were THE makers of American rifles, most of the people that bought them were British, Dutch, and French. All people who were used to long guns. So simple style could acount for some of this. Also as said it was at least popular feeling that longer barrels worked better. The improved sight radias was also a plus, making the gun seem more accurate.
Today many of us grew up with shorter they seem easier to use. However if you had handled long guns all your life the short may not of seamed handy. Lastly loading could have counted some what. I find a full gun easier to mess with at the muzzle. When the gun drops to jagger or later plains lenght, or even the dreaded conoe gun, I find that just too low to be handy loading.We can compare this with weskits and breechs. Even clot and leggings, why wear them when trousers are easier and a wskit is just an extra piece of clothing?....style.
 
No, most them were German, Scotch, Irish and-- English-- in the home of it all Pennsylvania.

Their eye sight was as good as the Germans' out to big game at 200 yards.

Sight radius has nothing to do with it nor did powder.

The short barreled Jaeger was superior to the Pa-Ky longrifle in every respect.
 
For me, 7 lbs is too light and the short bbl too "whippy".

Did the 8.9 lb Lancaster have a swamped bbl?

If the jäger was superior to the LR, why did it disappear and be replaced by the LR? There were many original gun makers who were quite capable of making a jäger, but evidently their customers preferred the LRs.

Today, whether one chooses a jäger or a LR is personal preference. My Bucks County and Lancasters don't weigh 8.9 lbs, even w/ a 44" or 46" swamped bbl.

Pictured below is a .50 cal. Bucks County LR w/ a 46" swamped bbl and it weights 7-3/4 lbs and the balance is excellent....Fred

 
blackelm said:
No, most them were German, Scotch, Irish and-- English-- in the home of it all Pennsylvania.

Their eye sight was as good as the Germans' out to big game at 200 yards.

Sight radius has nothing to do with it nor did powder.

The short barreled Jaeger was superior to the Pa-Ky longrifle in every respect.

Those devious smiths! They effortlessly persuaded the riflemen of the colonies to abandon their superior Jaeger styles for the longrifles that were so obviously deficient.
 
blackelm said:
No, most them were German, Scotch, Irish and-- English-- in the home of it all Pennsylvania.

Their eye sight was as good as the Germans' out to big game at 200 yards.

Sight radius has nothing to do with it nor did powder.

The short barreled Jaeger was superior to the Pa-Ky longrifle in every respect.
Yeah I said "British" that takes in the scots, and Irish, welsh and Manx. Not to be confused with English that's just s part of the British islands.
Sight radis will not make a gun more accurate. It will make it easier to sight. Although glasses made in 18 and 19tg century styles are common today among reinactors they were rare back then for most people. The average frontiersmen or German had as good or as poor eye as folks today with less correction.
Is a jäger a better gun then a long rifle. For sure guns evolved from short to long to short again, so you point can be valid, in the end it's a matter of taste. I like the feel of long, I find it "hangs" on the target. It feels goof in my hands and balances well when walking. Thank God he made vanilla for people who like it better then chocolate.
 
Why blackelm, you madcap...

you're deliberately stirring the pot. Is there a depraved satisfaction in ignoring the virtues of both?

Are you accusing the generations of gun maker of creating a marketing boondoggle in espousing the longer rifle at the expense of the consumer that had not been seen since we cordwainers convinced the western world that straight, narrow shoes were more macaroni than rights and lefts?

I'm touched
 
But you fail to realize that here in America, MORE has always been better than LESS! Those poor German continental's were so hemmed in that they couldn't even turn around with a long barreled gun. Oh then again, not all American longrifles were heavy. My favorites weigh from 6 to 7 lbs. with barrels out to 42-48 inches and balance and carry very sweetly. Blackelm, Cabin fever must be settin in! You just need to get out more!
 
Clumsy? My guess is you were looking at a poorly made rifle. Weight is not the primary factor in handling dynamics.

Also, who said gunsmiths on the continent weren't making longer rifles? That is a misconception.
 
I looked at your picture, Fred and my reply has absolutely nothing to do with Jaegar VS Longrifle.

You are looking mighty good, the rifle in your hands looks mighty good and your woods look mighty good. Looks to me like you have a "bird's nest on the ground" to use an old expression. My rifles are in excellent shape but that's all. My left wing is still not back to working well enough for me to support a rifle and I live in the Texas Hill country where we have not much more than brush. Trees are few and far between. So much so that our squirrels, what few we have, have to carry ladders to have something to climb. I love Texas but I sure do miss the woods of Indiana and the use of my left arm. I will regain the use of my left arm eventually but my days in the Indiana woods are gone forever.
 
Clumsy from the standpoint of overall length. The Jaegers also sported sling swivels and studs so you could free up your hands and carry your piece conveniently over your shoulder.

My hunch is that the LONG Pa-Ky barrels were associated with POWER. The longer, the harder they shot or sumtim like dat.
 
I believe the longer guns brought a better profit as we all know that back then firearms were sold by the li (lineal inch) :rotf: From day one its about marketing :blah:
 
There are a lot of questions surrounding the "why?" of firearms evolution. This is especially true of the American ml'ers. A well designed longrifle is a thing of beauty to hold. But, admittedly, many early longrifles were extremly barrel heavy. In small calibers they could be very difficult to hold. And we aren't even mentioning the tiny-tiny sights on them. :confused: OTOH, I have held Jaegers that were marvels of design and balance.
This is a do yer own thang game. Did someone say "personal preference"? Go with wat floats yer stick.
 
In the question about Jaeger/long rifle/plains rifle, you make some valid arguments but you are making an assumption about firearms and their place in society. You seem to think they were strictly a hunting tool. The fact is, people were then, as they are now, highly competitive, and they had not official organized sports such as we have today with basketball, baseball, football, bowling, golf and etc. Back then they had wrestling, knife throwing, a predecessor to bowling, and a few other competitions but nothing like today. The king of all competition sports, in the smaller villages, was shooting. The best shot was the local hero and the maker of his gun was at a similar position. They were the celebrities of the day. With this kind of competitive drive, even the smallest advantage would be utilized to improve ones chances.

The longer barrel does provide the advantage of both extended sighting radius and a better point of focus on the front sight. The further the front sight is from you eye, the more your eye can focus on both it and the target without either appearing blurry. These small, but not insignificant advantages would have been the edge that created the difference between the town hero and everybody else that owned a rifle. It wasn't just about hunting. Plenty of people put food on the table with smoothbores. It was about competition.

The old Jaegers were extremely heavy guns, and that may be due to older smithing techniques being questionable and the extra barrel thickness being needed to keep them safe. They would have made them shorter to keep them portable. The Plains rifles were designed to kill buffalo and grizzlies, as well as other game at a distance in the open country of the West. It was especially desirable for a grizzly to be hit with enough force that he was unable to pursue and kill his antagonist; but the longer range needed to kill game in open country also called for the ball to be smaller than many older guns, to make them flatter shooting. This meant more powder behind the ball. These guns had to have extremely heavy barrels, similar to the Jaegers, but for a different reason.

From original plains rifles I have seen, and not those just called plains rifles because they were half-stock, I would say they were just as heavy up front, having 34-38 inch barrels of a larger diameter than the 40-44 inch long rifles. These guns did not have the kind of steels or powder we have today and did not have the 26-28 inch barrel so common on what the call Hawken guns in the repro trade. Better target sights have also made the length of the gun less of an issue, although longer is still better until it gets too heavy for the shooter.

Additionally, men were stronger in those days, as well. The average man in the outlying communities spent all the daylight hours clearing fields, building cabins, farming with a horse drawn plough, and other activities that were much more strenuous then todays activities. For them, it would have been much easier to hold the long or heavy barrels found on so many of the older guns.

I am sure there are other reasons than these, but these seem to me to be the most obvious reason for the long rifles. Of course someone could make a crude remark about the length of some part of the anatomy being represented by the length of the rifle, but I certainly wouldn't. That would definitely cause an argument. :grin:
 
I want to get back to the powder issue. Here's what I was told many years ago. The long hunters traveled by foot not horseback and so they could carry a long rifle. The mountain men rode horses so they needed a short rifle, hence the barrels becoming shorter.
Then, after learning a little more I found out that the long hunters didn't walk, they generally travelled with horses but hunted on foot.
And....I found out mountain men rode horses but unless after buffalo they also generally hunted on foot.
So why the move to shorter barrels? I was told that the manufacture of black powder improved a lot from say 1776 to 1830 and that the longer barrels required to completely burn the earlier powder were no longer needed.
Well, we could go back and forth on this so to eliminate that, I really don't know which is correct. Does anyone have any documentation on the quality of powder over the time spans?
Of course the earlier jaeger rifles seem to dispute this powder issue unless the powders made for them were of a superior quality to the powders made in North America, if in fact that was the situation. Again- I don't know. Were our long rifles a result of locally made black powder of often inferior quality? I guess that's what I'm wondering.
 
Longer barrels were a market driven development and also a style and later developed back depending on the requirements of the market. Shorter barreled rifles require more training to shoot accurately (easier to aim).
If you are a poor frontierman plowing the newly cultivated land, powder, lead and a rifle/gun was a large expense.
And the rifle was largely used as a hunting tool which requires one accurate shot, sometimes further than a smoothbore would actually be accurate. The rifle was never intended to be a battle weapon, but a welcome addition to "dispatch" enemy leadership at greater distances and of troops raised from border areas.
For hit and run tatctics on the frontier, the rifle was suitable but for period linear tactics it was mostly not usable for large scale battles.
 
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