Jute "not a haversack"

[colmoultrie]

Well, since we've been told, despite at least one Hogarth painting, that haversacks were strictly a military item, not used by civilians, what I just made is NOT a haversack, but merely a bag. I had some herringbone jute, a fabric I believe to be HC, and decided to make a sturdy bag:

I don't know whether such a bag ever existed in the 18th century as a game bag or similar, but it suits my fancy. Let me know what you think.

 

[coloradoclyde]

"Suum cuique" :thumbsup:

I would call it a "possibles" bag :grin:

 

[B.Habermehl]

Looks like a handy bag to me. Nice. BJH

 

[George]

colmoultrie, I have long been suspicious that we have not yet nailed down the situation with haversacks. I know, the dogma is that it was a military item for food, only, but I occasionally run across usage of the term which doesn't fit into that narrative very well. For instance, from Chuck Casada's site, the definition of haversack from what he calls an 18th-century dictionary:

Haversack: ”¦”the bag in which the Calvary (sic) and horsemen carried oats for their horses. Hence extended to a bag in which travelers and others carried personal property, and to that used by the French and English soldiers... a bag of stout canvas, worn with a strap over the shoulder, in which a soldier carries his current days rations. Also any similar bag used for a like purpose by travelers, etc.” (Casada 2001)

And, in the day, at least the Hessians didn't limit the term to a bag for food. Hauptman (Captain) Johann Ewald in his "Diary of the American War - A Hessian Journal" p. 108:

"During these two years (1776-1777) the Americans have trained a great many excellent officers who very often shame and excell our experienced officers, who consider it sinful to read a book or think of learning anything during the war. For the love of justice and in praise of this nation, I must admit that when we examined the haversack of the enemy, which contained only two shirts, we also found the most excellent
military books translated into their language."

And even the people of the day didn't use the term in the same way we do. Wouldn't we have called the one in this item a knapsack?

"The Pennsylvania Gazette
August 23, 1764
Extract of a Letter from Niagara, dated July 15, 1764.
A few days ago a Soldier was fired at by an Indian on the Carrying Place; the Ball struck the Haversack on his Back, the things therein prevented its entering his Body;"

Possibles bag? I'm still looking for a period”¦ any period”¦ primary document using that term. I always assumed that was coined by some 20th-century writer.

Nice looking”¦. thingie. :haha:

Spence

 

[DOUBLEDEUCE 1]

Nice looking bag. :thumbsup:

 

[Rifleman1776]

I have long been suspicious that we have not yet nailed down the situation with haversacks.

I see the "situation" as silly, not suspicious. Bags of all kinds similar to what we call a haversack have been used since Biblical times and probably before. Folks had a need to carry stuff always. Ancient Egypitian paintings and carvings show similar bags in use. Really, what is the controversy all about?

Edit: Nearly forgot. :redface: It is a nice bag, ye dun gud. :thumbsup:

 

[Alden]

It is well that you referenced biblical times because it is the average holier-than-thou parrots that flock together, repeating made up internet history and insisting the rest of us live by this year's edicts, that do the hobby a disservice. It isn't someone calling that nice bag one thing or another. But just to be safe I've named it...

...a herringsack. Yes, some may have smelt something fishy about that but rather than flounder around some arbitrary perfect name it just makes sense.

 

[colmoultrie]

A herringsack is a good name, but alas, the fishy connotation is a bit too gamey for me. :grin:

A game bag it shall remain in my mind for the moment.

 

[Claude Mathis]

Really, what is the controversy all about?

No controversy here. I don't know or care what a "haversack" is and I think "possibles" is a modern term that came from the movies.

I call mine a "shoulder bag" and everyone in the world knows what that means. :grin:

 

[tenngun]

And to Alden and rifleman too. :thumbsup: we try to hammer round pegs of some modern vocabulary in to 18th century ideas.
The bag looks great, but have to say....dude, it's a hemp bag, wow man....what were we taking about. Oh yeah solders rations man I got the munchies :haha:

 

[George]

[I see the "situation" as silly, not suspicious.

Yeah, it's a "do your own thing" sort of thing, isn't it? Sorry, lost my head. What's all the kerfuffle about all that old fashioned crap, anyway?

Spence

 

[Alden]

Well I think you should take a fishing poll.

 

[coloradoclyde]

Gee! :shocked2: I hope I didn't start all this "Hoopla " by calling it a possibles bag...

Wasn't my intention....Heck I like the bag

 

[LaBonte]

... I think "possibles" is a modern term that came from the movies.

It is not a modern term from the movies or books..

from George Frederick Ruxton's book "Life in the Far West", published in the late 1840's, "...whars the dollars as ought to be in my possibles?". Ruxton also references a "possibles sack" describing it as a "wallet of dressed buffalo skin" for carrying "[extra] ammunition, a few pounds of tobacco, dressed deerskins for moccasins, etc."


In William Drummond Stewart's fictional book "Edward Warren", published in 1854 but based on his several years of Rocky mountain experiences during the 1830's, "...my gaudy cottons having confronted the glorious sun until sunk from the contest, were ready to be re-consigned to the possible sack."

So for Spence there's the two main period (1830's-50's)references for the term "possibles" sack.

What did happen in modern times was Buckskinners in the 1960's-70's mis-interpreted the term and applied it to the shooting/hunting pouch.

 

[George]

So for Spence there's the two main period (1830's-50's)references for the term "possibles" sack.

Thanks, LeBonte, glad to get those. I found Ruxton on line and was apparently able to see all the "possibles" references, and I have the impression he's not always using the term to specifically mean a sack, but rather as a general term for his possessions. Only the one where he is describing collecting treasures for Mary Brand does he say he put stuff in his "possible sack", so there's no doubt about that one. I can't find his description of the possibles sack, or the term wallet in that book, still looking for it. Good stuff.

Can't find Stewart's Edward Warren in a useful searchable online form, yet.

Thanks a bunch, glad to get those for my file.

Spence

 

[Rifleman1776]

No controversy here.

Yer taking the fun out of our pointless bitching. :wink:

 

[Sean Gadhar]

My limited use of jute has shown that if it gets wet it stiffens up quite a bit. I'll be interested to see how that does for you, come the cold wet fall. :idunno: Might not make much at all but then again it might ....... Either way it is nice looking and wants to go brook trout fishing if you ask me.

Oh and the herringbone is a fine touch. Elevates it from a burlap sack repurposed into a nice bit of kit :thumbsup:

 

[tenngun]

I do doubt there was any difeanition of possible sack back then. A saddle bag being the most likely. The above haversack above noted haversack on ones back is a good example. Haversack, snapsack, napsack could be used in a way we would define it today, or used in ways we wouldn't use it today. Just as today we wouldn't call a basket hilt a claymore, but 100 years ago you could. Did anyone call a shooting bag a possible sack? I doubt it. However did any one put on a bag that looked just like a haversack and stuff random stuff in it? I'm thinking yes. Call it your purse, or your wallet. When glass found some of his plunder in his wallet stuffed under his head he is recorded as 'feeling much better'. I doubt he had a 'market wallet' on his shoulder, but something that looked like a haversack....maybe.

 

[Claude Mathis]

... I think "possibles" is a modern term that came from the movies.

It is not a modern term from the movies or books..

from George Frederick Ruxton's book "Life in the Far West", published in the late 1840's, "...whars the dollars as ought to be in my possibles?". Ruxton also references a "possibles sack" describing it as a "wallet of dressed buffalo skin" for carrying "[extra] ammunition, a few pounds of tobacco, dressed deerskins for moccasins, etc."

Thanks, I stand corrected - I love the truth even if it proves me wrong. :wink:

 

[colmoultrie]

Interesting you say that, as I just ran it through the washing machine, which tightened it up a bit. It took out the oil smell that comes with processed jute fabric, and it defined the shape and folds. The bag seems softer, but that may be the fabric softener the wife added to the load of wash.