Hi all, New to forum! I am dreaming of building a Flintlock for my Dad based on a typical rifle from the New York - Massachussettes area in the post revolutionary to early 1800's period. I would like to use a late Ketland lock. I have read that they typically used a very rectangular patchbox that was fairly simple. I had also read that the trigger guard and sideplate had a rectangular tang like appendage off the front. Assuming this info is correct what other details are known to help me choose components to build a rifle. The things I would like to know are caliber, barrel length, nose cap, buttplate and stock material. If there is anything else please share. Thanks, Peter.
Ketland Flintlock New England
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Johnny Tremain
Silversmith in training
http://www.muzzleloaderbuilderssupply.com/contact.html
Send for a catalog
I got all my parts from these gals.
The Chambers Late Kateland is of the HIGHEST caliber.
The rest of the parts are to bad either
The barrel I could not get anywhere else, its a dusey too.
Send for a catalog
I got all my parts from these gals.
The Chambers Late Kateland is of the HIGHEST caliber.
The rest of the parts are to bad either
The barrel I could not get anywhere else, its a dusey too.
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Gol durnet Fatt Deutchar, wee's not on tha "othar" furum. Wees rite har. :grin:
As for rifles from the New England and New York areas my information is somewhat limited.
The book KENTUCKY RIFLES & PISTOLS 1750-1850 (GOLDEN AGE ARMS COMPANY. COPYRIGHT BY THE KENTUCKY RIFLE ASSOCIATION) shows a few on pages 165-170. Bear in mind that the origin of the guns in some cases is speculative.
pg 165 has a Rhode Island Flintlock dated 1776 with a "Octagon straight barrel .45 inches long, .45 cal. rifled. Butt plate 1 3/4 inches (wide). Uncarved walnut stock. "G Westcot" (1736-1812) along with a date inlaid with silver wire on cheek side of butt plate."
The stock shape is similar to a Buck County in that it has a curved bottom and a very slight roman nose comb. The patchbox is similar to a Lancaster Daisy style and the sideplate is anything but a rectangular shape.
pg 166 shows a Flintlock "New England gun signed H. Llocomb Worchester, Massachusetts. Length 59 inches. Octagonal-straight barrel 43 inches long. .59 cal. rifled. Butt plate 1 5/8 inches. Uncarved cherry stock..."
The stocks butt is fairly straight, similar to a Lancaster but with more drop. The patchbox is a daisy style. The sideplates consist of two pieces, the upper, aft one being a modified ellipse and the forward one a curved acanthus leaf shape.
Page 167 shows a Flintlock "New England. Signed H. Pratt. Ca. 1832-1861. Roxbury, Massachusetts. Length 50 1/4 inches. Octagonal barrel 34 1/2 inches long. .58 cal. rifled. Butt plate 2 inches. Uncarved walnut stock with 7 silver inlays and wire decoration."
Patchbox finale is a pineapple shape. Upper aft sideplate is a ellipse. Forward screw does not look like it is sitting on a plate.
Stock shape very much like a Lancaster but with a very sharp drop at the front of the comb.
page 168 shows 5 New England rifles. They all seem to have the straight comb of the Lancaster style butts.
Two of the rifles are Flintlocks. The calibers mentioned are .45, .51, .52 and .58.
Three have Cherry stocks while two have walnut.
Barrel lengths are from 36 to40 3/4 inches
Two Patchboxe fineals are Pineapples and three are
what I would call "horseheads". The off side of these guns are not shown so I don't know about the sideplates.
Page 170 shows a very ornate backaction percussion gun. I would guess it to be from the 1840-1855 era. The stock comb is rather straight like a Lancaster, the trigger guard is very unusual.
After looking at these guns I would say you would be fairly safe in going with a older Lancaster style precarve (if your planning on starting with a precarved stock), in Cherry. A .50 caliber 42 inch barrel would be about right.
As this sounds like it is your first venture into gunbuilding, I would suggest keeping the patchbox fairly simple like Track of the Wolf's #PB-Kit-1 (daisy) or # PB-Kit-4 (Horse head).
You really need to buy the Track of the Wolf catalog. They don't cost much and the photos are full size. The catalog will also give you a good idea of what parts are available.
I would also strongly suggest that you consider buying a copy of the above mentioned book. There are hundreds of photos of many fine old rifles and a reference like this will be a interesting addition to your collection of books.
As for rifles from the New England and New York areas my information is somewhat limited.
The book KENTUCKY RIFLES & PISTOLS 1750-1850 (GOLDEN AGE ARMS COMPANY. COPYRIGHT BY THE KENTUCKY RIFLE ASSOCIATION) shows a few on pages 165-170. Bear in mind that the origin of the guns in some cases is speculative.
pg 165 has a Rhode Island Flintlock dated 1776 with a "Octagon straight barrel .45 inches long, .45 cal. rifled. Butt plate 1 3/4 inches (wide). Uncarved walnut stock. "G Westcot" (1736-1812) along with a date inlaid with silver wire on cheek side of butt plate."
The stock shape is similar to a Buck County in that it has a curved bottom and a very slight roman nose comb. The patchbox is similar to a Lancaster Daisy style and the sideplate is anything but a rectangular shape.
pg 166 shows a Flintlock "New England gun signed H. Llocomb Worchester, Massachusetts. Length 59 inches. Octagonal-straight barrel 43 inches long. .59 cal. rifled. Butt plate 1 5/8 inches. Uncarved cherry stock..."
The stocks butt is fairly straight, similar to a Lancaster but with more drop. The patchbox is a daisy style. The sideplates consist of two pieces, the upper, aft one being a modified ellipse and the forward one a curved acanthus leaf shape.
Page 167 shows a Flintlock "New England. Signed H. Pratt. Ca. 1832-1861. Roxbury, Massachusetts. Length 50 1/4 inches. Octagonal barrel 34 1/2 inches long. .58 cal. rifled. Butt plate 2 inches. Uncarved walnut stock with 7 silver inlays and wire decoration."
Patchbox finale is a pineapple shape. Upper aft sideplate is a ellipse. Forward screw does not look like it is sitting on a plate.
Stock shape very much like a Lancaster but with a very sharp drop at the front of the comb.
page 168 shows 5 New England rifles. They all seem to have the straight comb of the Lancaster style butts.
Two of the rifles are Flintlocks. The calibers mentioned are .45, .51, .52 and .58.
Three have Cherry stocks while two have walnut.
Barrel lengths are from 36 to40 3/4 inches
Two Patchboxe fineals are Pineapples and three are
what I would call "horseheads". The off side of these guns are not shown so I don't know about the sideplates.
Page 170 shows a very ornate backaction percussion gun. I would guess it to be from the 1840-1855 era. The stock comb is rather straight like a Lancaster, the trigger guard is very unusual.
After looking at these guns I would say you would be fairly safe in going with a older Lancaster style precarve (if your planning on starting with a precarved stock), in Cherry. A .50 caliber 42 inch barrel would be about right.
As this sounds like it is your first venture into gunbuilding, I would suggest keeping the patchbox fairly simple like Track of the Wolf's #PB-Kit-1 (daisy) or # PB-Kit-4 (Horse head).
You really need to buy the Track of the Wolf catalog. They don't cost much and the photos are full size. The catalog will also give you a good idea of what parts are available.
I would also strongly suggest that you consider buying a copy of the above mentioned book. There are hundreds of photos of many fine old rifles and a reference like this will be a interesting addition to your collection of books.
Stophel
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I have the per-cussed drum for it lying on the workbench...somewhere...
The rest of the photos can be seen on the album at[url] http://photobucket.com/albums/v326/Fatdutchman/Original Flintlocks[/url]
The stock is of cherry, which is normal for guns of this area. I am convinced that the grain was filled with a spirit varnish (seedlac/shellac) with a long-gone oil varnish as the top coat. The barrel is about 41" long, about .58 caliber (always was), and more-or-less straight at about 15/16". One turn in about 32", I think. The sideplates are 1/4" THICK cast brass. The ramrod pipes are pinned with two pins each, which straddle each barrel tenon, so you have three sets of three pins going down the fore end. A very commonly seen regional detail. The sights consist of a normal type rear with a VERY small "V" notch, and the front sight is a SMALL brass post, which is staked into the barrel some way, which I am told is the common way it was done here. The butt is "egg-shaped" like on a Mauser rifle.
This is my one and only old American rifle. It is not the most finely assembled arm, but neat overall.
See there, Brooks? That's what cherry wood is supposed to look like! :haha:
The rest of the photos can be seen on the album at[url] http://photobucket.com/albums/v326/Fatdutchman/Original Flintlocks[/url]
The stock is of cherry, which is normal for guns of this area. I am convinced that the grain was filled with a spirit varnish (seedlac/shellac) with a long-gone oil varnish as the top coat. The barrel is about 41" long, about .58 caliber (always was), and more-or-less straight at about 15/16". One turn in about 32", I think. The sideplates are 1/4" THICK cast brass. The ramrod pipes are pinned with two pins each, which straddle each barrel tenon, so you have three sets of three pins going down the fore end. A very commonly seen regional detail. The sights consist of a normal type rear with a VERY small "V" notch, and the front sight is a SMALL brass post, which is staked into the barrel some way, which I am told is the common way it was done here. The butt is "egg-shaped" like on a Mauser rifle.
This is my one and only old American rifle. It is not the most finely assembled arm, but neat overall.
See there, Brooks? That's what cherry wood is supposed to look like! :haha:
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Der Fett' Deutscher: Don't look now but I stole your gun! :grin: Hope you don't mind if I post one of your pictures but this is showing exactly the kind of sideplates I was trying to describe up above where I said the aft lockplate was elliptical:
Seems to have been popular up in the NE area?
Like yours, they also were single trigger guns (with the exception of the late model percussion that is.)
Unlike yours, they all had a rail aft of the trigger guard proper which had a very pronounced curve, almost touching the stock.
Seems to have been popular up in the NE area?
Like yours, they also were single trigger guns (with the exception of the late model percussion that is.)
Unlike yours, they all had a rail aft of the trigger guard proper which had a very pronounced curve, almost touching the stock.
Stophel
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USUALLY, when you see a Massachusetts rifle, you will see a gun with a flat "toe line" on the stock, and a "normal" buttplate with the larger tang. It will also usually have a triggerguard with a standing grip rail. Also, probably more often than not, it will be half stocked with a wood underrib. The "fowler-type" hardware on this particular gun may be somewhat unusual, but should not be considered odd, as this would be the same hardware the gunsmith would use for making a smoothbore gun.
My personal opinion on the "G Westcot" gun is that it is a POST Revolutionary gun. The wire date of "1776" may even be original to the gun, but perhaps was placed there in commemoration of the owner's military or civil service to the Revolutionary cause a few years earlier.
Guns like letters "A" through "E" in "Kentucky Rifles and Pistols.." are probably more typical (and certainly nicer) examples of Massachusetts guns than mine is.
As far as New York guns, other than the Hudson valley Dutch ones, I have seen VERY few guns that have been attributed to New York. Of those few that I have seen, they are all VERY English in style
My personal opinion on the "G Westcot" gun is that it is a POST Revolutionary gun. The wire date of "1776" may even be original to the gun, but perhaps was placed there in commemoration of the owner's military or civil service to the Revolutionary cause a few years earlier.
Guns like letters "A" through "E" in "Kentucky Rifles and Pistols.." are probably more typical (and certainly nicer) examples of Massachusetts guns than mine is.
As far as New York guns, other than the Hudson valley Dutch ones, I have seen VERY few guns that have been attributed to New York. Of those few that I have seen, they are all VERY English in style
Thanks for everyones help! From the sound of things I like the styling of the Worcester Mass rifles best. Would these have used Ketland locks? I ordered some books today on building and others on features and identification. I also ordered the KENTUCKY RIFLES & PISTOLS 1750-1850 book and a catalog from Muzzle Loaders Supply. I have the DGW catalog as well FWIW. I will print all the replies and metabolize them more slowly. Keep em coming! :grin: Thanks again, Peter.
Track is showing two Ketland locks.
The "Early Ketland flat faced lock" with the pronounced point doesn't look like the locks shown in the KR&P book photos or in Fatt Duetchers photo, however IMO, the "Classic Ketland" and the "John Twigg" both look like they would be appropriate.
Zonie
The "Early Ketland flat faced lock" with the pronounced point doesn't look like the locks shown in the KR&P book photos or in Fatt Duetchers photo, however IMO, the "Classic Ketland" and the "John Twigg" both look like they would be appropriate.
Zonie
I agree with Zonie. The early Ketland is more appropriate for pre-Revolutionary War and Revolutionary War period pieces or guns made from salvaged parts later.
Russ T Frizzen
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I was at Ft. Ticonderoga last weekend. The only rifles I remember were Jaegers, but I was more interested in the fowlers and muskets. In any case, a trip to Ft. Ti is always a fine way to spend time.
Johnny Tremain
Silversmith in training
Being that I have Late Ketland, I wanted to get the Ketland logo engraved on to it.
These are the pics I used.
Dang forum poster made thme too small to see :-(
These are the pics I used.
Dang forum poster made thme too small to see :-(
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