Kettenburg Tulle

[pharmvet]

Well I followed Al/ONT 's lead and put in my order for a Tulle by Eric Kettenburg. I did this a while back and may have it this fall. I need some help from you guys on picking out a hunting pouch to complement this fine gun. There is a hunting bag (large one with game straps and powder measure) made by Frank Tyler on Eric's site. I have been discussing purchasing this bag with Frank for some time. I "really" like the look, but I wonder if I can make this bag fit French mid 1700's. What do you guys think. I know this should go in the accountrements section, but I thought the audience here would be more interested and have more feedback. If it needs to be moved, so be it. thanks

 

Im just finishing up my Tulle and am looking for the same type of bag.
I will be using my french canadian bag.
It fits the mid 1700s.
If you look closely you will notice that Wes Studi has one in LOTM.

Got mine at the Log Cabin Shop. Around $42.00

 

There is relatively little literature on French accoutrements. The general feeling I get from my research is that bags of that period were small, and frequently the French coureur de bois, at least, used split pouches [small double bags worn through the sash or belt]. Military and perhaps militia used cartridge boxes. I used a small "D" shaped leather shoulder bag initially with my Tulle fusil, but went to a split pouch [now a s a Marine I use a cartridge box]. Some of the civilians may have carried Indian style bags--which in addition to the common split pouch included decorated shoulder bags [quilled, etc] of cloth or leather. Horns too should be plain rather than English style we are familiar with--I am not saying there were no fancy French horns, just that they are hard to document. There are period accounts of the use of Buffalo horns by the people of French Louisiana [the region from Illinois to the gulf coast along the Miss River].

 

[Geoff Jones]

Pharmvet...

Congratulations on your purchase.....ANYTHING made by EK is very high on my "desirables" list.

In regards to the bag....I had the opportunity to handle that larger bag which is shown on Erics website. Let me assure you, it is as fine as it appears in the photo's.....Frank makes an excellent, very authentic product. If EK endorses it for mid 18th C...that would be good enough for me....
Geoff

 

[Okwaho]

There is relatively little literature on French accoutrements. The general feeling I get from my research is that bags of that period were small, and frequently the French coureur de bois, at least, used split pouches [small double bags worn through the sash or belt]. Military and perhaps militia used cartridge boxes. I used a small "D" shaped leather shoulder bag initially with my Tulle fusil, but went to a split pouch [now a s a Marine I use a cartridge box]. Some of the civilians may have carried Indian style bags--which in addition to the common split pouch included decorated shoulder bags [quilled, etc] of cloth or leather. Horns too should be plain rather than English style we are familiar with--I am not saying there were no fancy French horns, just that they are hard to document. There are period accounts of the use of Buffalo horns by the people of French Louisiana [the reg
ion from Illinois to the gulf coast along the Miss River].

I agree completely with Mike here. There is,however,one bag probably carried by a French Voyageur or Coureur de bois in the early 18th century.It was on the King's inventory in Paris and was collected before 1721. See Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly, Vol.36,No. 2,Summer 2000.P.2.It is a cloth bag with a quilled flap and wampum strap.The bag measures 8" in length and 7" in width with the strap being 3' 7" in length and 1" wide.I agree also on the split pouch which I as a French allied Mohawk carry.

With all due respect to Mr. Tyler,whose products are attractive and well made,I do not believe them to be appropriate for the 18th century and especially not in Canada during that period..I don't know what type of bag was carried by Wes Studi but the fact is that an item of gear from LOTM is hardly documentation for the 18th or probably even the 19th century.A careful reading of Eric's web site fails to show an endorsement of Tyler bags for the 18th century.

 

[J.D.]

Nice Bag, but like Mike and Tom, and based on my research, that bag is probably not correct to the mid 18th century. I said probably because other than a few possible examples, we really don't know what a bag dating to the mid 18th century would look like, not to mention that many styles of bags probably did not change all that much through the end of the ML period, so who really knows.

IMHO, the bag in teh photo above is more reminiscent of 1840, as opposed to 1760.

I did recieve a pattern for a heart shaped bag that was found in an excavation of an NDN village in either PA or Ohio, reported to have been abandond in 1764. The bag was found inside a burried pot, don't remember what material the pot was made of, although a little smaller, the pattern is nearly identical to the bag illustrated in plate 80, page 123, of Grant's hunting pouch book.

I would suggest either a heart shaped bag, or a square, or nearly square bag for a french inpression, if one insists on carrying a shoulder style bag. Otherwise, follow Mike and Okwaho's suggestions.

The accoutrements carried in the bag in teh photo seem a little exessive, especially the toes of the boots. They would fill a bag up quick. :rotf:

Sorry, I couln't help myself. :grin:
J.D.

 

[pharmvet]

Well, I think Ive got my answer. As much as I like that bag, Im afraid Im trying to force a square peg into a round hole. Its the quality of that bag I like as much as the bag itself. Frank isnt building any more bags at present and may not ever again. Do you recommend a maker that builds bags of the same quality as Frank Tyler. thanks

 

[Okwaho]

I would have to seriously question the the bag on Page 123{plate 80}being much before the mid 19th century. This type of bag along with the ones with the kidney shaped flaps are generally comsidered to be Ca.1820 to the late 19th century.
Tom Patton

 

[J.D.]

This bag illustrated in the hunting pouch book is larger than the pattern of the bag found in the abandon NDN village, otherwise they are very similar.

The pattern was sent to me about 8-10 years ago by a gentleman I met on the old F&I mailing list. I believe he was the the commander of the Forces of Wolf and Montcalm, at that time.

My impression of him, and from his reputation was that he was a good researcher, so I do believe his sincerity in reporting what he had learned.

My failing memory will not allow me to remember his name, however, he received this pattern at a conference on the history of late colonial period.

The presenter reported that the bag the pattern was made off of was excavated at the site of an NDN village abandoned in the mid 1760's; 1764, if my memory is correct.

I was a member of the Forces at that time, with an individual memebership, but due to contraints of time and distance was unable to attend any events in what I consider to be the far north and eastern parts of the country, so did not have the pleasure of meeting this gentleman face to face.

I will have to dig out the the pattern and confirm the dimensions.

I put this pattern away in a location where I wouldn't forget where it was, so it may take quite a while to find it. :redface:
J.D.

 

[spudnut]

Ive found that carrying a small bag works out better than a large one,I have made a few but the best one I made I sent off with a rifle I had sold to sweeten the deal and regret losing that bag. :shake:

 

[DrTimboone]

There are lots of good choices if you want someone to make a bag for you. I like Speedy Hogarth's work very much as well as Tim Albert's. They both know a great deal about the history of bags and do beautiful work. You will pay a lot more than $42 but you will have a very serviceable lifetime piece of art as well as a functional bag that "could well" fit your time period. I think Colonial period bags for a French canadian would probably have an indian influence or a more french/european design and finish whereas the one you have has a sort of frontier folk art look to it. Hope this helps. Just my $.02 worth.

See Tim Albert's new book on bagmaking from TOTW.

 

[Okwaho]

See my post above on this thread on the bag in Paris collected in New France prior to 1721 and illustrated in the "Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly".I tend to agree with Dr. Boone on the Indian influence on bags although shoulder bags may not be as early as we think.There is at least one reference to bags being worn around the neck and hanging down in back.There are numerous woven bags but the quill decorated bags are likely not hunting bags but rather ceremonial bags perhaps udrd by groups such as the Medewin grand societies of the Ojibwa and other Great Lakes area tribes.
Tom Patton