Kibler vs. TVM.

[Joemolf]

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I have a 50 cal Late Lancaster made by TVM about five years ago and I love it!

It’s a work of art and very accurate!

I went to order a smaller bore southern from them last year and the lady I had worked with before waved me off. She said how their lead times and cost were way up and they couldn’t get all the parts they used to.

Maybe their operation has had trouble and she didn’t want me to be disappointed?

When I’m ready, I’ll get a SMR from Kibler. 1/2 the cost and the lead time is up to me and my free time.

Agree nice looking rifle! I just love these rifles!

I’m no expert on Lancaster Rifles and I am not correcting you but it looks to me to be an early version vice late. Maybe someone who knows can elaborate. My understanding is the short barrel Lancaster’s came later and are referred to as Transition Rifles? 38 inch barrel vice 44/42. My thinking is the shorter rifle came about to save weight and they realized they didn’t need a 44 or 42 inch barrel to get all the powder to burn? I have a C profile 50 cal transition rifle and I’m building a B profile currently. The C profile is heavy even at 38 inches. Honestly I would have preferred a 44 or 42 but didn’t know any better. Though my C profile is very accurate I think I’m going to like the B profile when it is finished. It’s a bit lighter.

 

[stikshooter]

My SMR too was beautiful i was very delighted. I have no reason to slam them! I literally purchased the rifle and fired it maybe 6 rounds! It was the first gun I ever purchased that shot perfectly with no tweaking of sights. I own a dozen or so flinters and I figured some day I’d give it to my nephew or my brother. Anyway during the time it sat in the closet here in dry New Hampshire it shrunk excessively. So much so that the that the butt stock had to be reshaped and 5/16 of ia inch groud off the base of the base plate. All the photos and the particulars are posted here on the forum. There you will get a true sense of what I got. I paid 2500 for it the sand cast ramrod tubes still have all the parting lines. When I removed the barrel the barrel tabs were not slotted! The ramrod channel was drilled through the barrel cannel 6 to 8 inches of wood was purposely removed! the barrel channel had several cracks they dressed with a CA glue or a very thin epoxy! What hacks! Oh the thing that bothered me almost as much as the the stock shrinking is the way they installed the buttplate! They do not inlet them they cut them flush cut a groove in the top and back of the buttstock and Glued it on with bondo or equivalent. Maybe epoxy with a lot of fiberglass to give it density. Not acraglas! Ask them about the 3 rifles they loaned to someone in Nevada that when returned none of the hardware fit! They are in Louisiana they have to know they have a humidity problem! The stoc should have been dried and sealed. The Virginia i special ordered from them shrunk equally as bad. There was a 3/32 lip on the buttplate all sides! I paid a real master a boat load of money to completely redo that entire gun!

As far as your comment about the Kimbler cracked stock I smell BS! I received a stock from them with a very minor ding in the barrel channel edge. I felt bad asking them if they could send me another it was so minor a slight v ding that now I would fix. Without batting an Eye they insisted i send it back and sent me a new one!!!!!!! TVM and the sweet sounding daughter play that southern charm game and do nothing! Why did I ever buy a TVM because Mike Bellevue gave them a plug on one of his flintlock videos. I don’t think he would plug for them if he knew his buttplate was glued on! The sweet daughter told me every rifle they make they bondo the buttplate! So I am curious take your buttplate off and see if you have stained epoxy bondo that they make to look like it was inletted. Take the barrel off are the barrel tabs slotted? So I have two rifles from them in excess of $6500 dollars! They certainly can make rifles that look nice and shoot well. I doubt there kits are as bad as there finished rifles for obvious reasons. But my two assembled rifles were full of surprises. I have no reason to bash them. But after being fed a bunch of sweet talking BS I walked away. There hacks!View attachment 250863View attachment 250864View attachment 250863View attachment 250864View attachment 250865View attachment 250866

Photo worth a thousand words ( UGLY a thousand times)/Ed

 

[Mike in FL]

Mike That little drill bushing if you’re not clear is for drilling the barrel tabs and the trigger guard hold down pins. With the barrel clamped in place (use a clamp near each tab location). Insert the guide bushing into the 1/16 diameter hole in the stock; (i’d work from the left) butting against the barrel tab. using the smaller of the two bits supplied carefully and slowly drill the pilot hole in the barrel tab. One tab at a time. Remove the bushing and then using the 1/16 bit again slowly and carefully drill the barrel tab to final size 1/16 inch. Cut yourself a pin a 1/2 inch or so oversize of the stock round the tip for ease of alignment and insert the pin from the left side into the stock through the barrel tab. Tap in gently with a small hammer. Repeat for the remaining two barrel tabs. That little bushing will help the novice drill perfect holes without oblonging the predrilled holes in the stock. You use this shop aid to drill the trigger guard holes also. Easy right? Just go slow and think about what you’re doing. When you have all three holes drilled slot the barrel tabs now or at a later time but be sure to slot them using a jeweler saw. Do not slot trigger guard holes.

Thank you sir. I'm going very slow to avoid mistakes. Even so, I still screw up in small wzys,but nothing that will be visible in the finished gun and nothing that affects function. I really am thankful for all the advice. You experienced people have my respect.

 

[MAC1967]

My first build was a TVM . . . Second a Chambers . . . Kibler isn't an option for me until they or if they make a left hand model. However, comparing a TVM with a Kibler is kind of an apples to oranges comparison. Kibler is CMC (i think that's the term meaning computer guided stock cutting, whereas TVM is machine and hand, Chambers is machine as is Pecatonica and Track of the Wolf.) The quality of the precarve stock and inletting for Kibler is a whole other level, that makes them unique among all others.
If you don't have and don't want the skills needed to truly build, a Kibler is the way to go. Matt Advance and the people at TVM are wonderful and they make a great rifle for the price. . .and they make them in left hand. I have a LH late Lancaster in .32. BUT Jim Chambers has their niche too, and they are good folks to work with. I personally like their rifle designs the best of the three. If I build another it would likely be a Chambers Isaac Haines kit. Some say now that Kibler has the best lock too. I am glad there are choices out there.

 

[Joemolf]

Photo worth a thousand words ( UGLY a thousand times)/Ed

You asked LOL! Despite its plainness I do think it is a nice looking especially in cherry. It’s there version of an SMR. It’s 40 cal. I have not weighed it but it feels heavier than my 36 cal Kimbler SMR. I’m curious about the barrel all i can make out is A40 and made in PA. Might say on the bill of sales. Anyway it shoots lights out up to 50 yards. Probably much farther but I can only see that far and have no interest in shooting further. It was proudly presented on there website I liked it and bought it. I never paid any attention to workmanship details until several years later. The finish was fine nothing bold. Again to me a really nice flintlock.
Unfortunately years later I completely disassembled it after the butt cracked. Even that bothered me but the gun was already 5 years old no more than 1/2 dozen balls through it. What I didn’t like and I am sure others may agree is some of the workmanship. I’m not going to beat the cracked buttplate you can read about that in a months ago post. So i have attached several pictures showing some obvious flaws internally which maybe I should not even care about. I doubt very much they would include the stock I have in a kit they sell.
So starting with over all rifle then the breach nothing terrible but many builders frown on acraglass. I agree with that but if stabilizes a poor inlet breach plug then so be it

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The barrel channel is missing 12 inches of its base. I was amazed to see that

 

[Joemolf]

Another few pictures and maybe a video

 

[Joemolf]

Missing barrel channel base

 

[Joemolf]

Missing barrel channel base
View attachment 251656View attachment 251657View attachment 251657View attachment 251658View attachment 251656

 

[Joemolf]

I’m thinking I’m going to sell my infamous TVM SMR. I’m wondering what you all think it might be worth with all the flaws I pointed out?
I be willing to let the interested member in good standing buy and try the rifle for 7 days they can shoot it and disassemble it to witness the build. Just don’t beat it up. I fired it using 40 grains of 3F swiss a .395 ball and.15 patch. Surprisingly accurate at 50 yards. If they like it they can keep it. If they don’t pay the postage back to me and I will refund your money 100 percent. Just ship it back clean and no buggered screws or damage report any damage upon receipt; there are no safe marks. I did pay $2500 for it I have the original receipt but the flaws I pointed out obviously will drive the price down. The deal gives someone the opportunity to buy a gun that shoots well just has cosmetic issues and at a good price I’m thinking.

Me I will never be happy with it knowing I was taken. But you won’t because I put everything on the table. So what would be a fair asking price since I am leaning towards selling it. I figure I can try and sell it on GunBroker and note the butt stock crack. Or donate and take the tax deduction if that’s possible. It’s Just taking up space.

 

[RMH]

Me I will never be happy with it knowing I was taken

That really is a shame. The workmanship is beyond shoddy. I feel like I dodged a bullet. I called those folks but was put off by the attitude and time frame of having one built for me.

 

[MAC1967]

I think TVM beds all the breech areas of their barrels. It was that way even in my TVM kit. There's nothing wrong with doing that. I've built two other rifles, a Chambers, and a blank and I bedded that area of both. . . lots of builders do this.

 

[Joemolf]

I think TVM beds all the breech areas of their barrels. It was that way even in my TVM kit. There's nothing wrong with doing that. I've built two other rifles, a Chambers, and a blank and I bedded that area of both. . . lots of builders do this.

Agreed not the worst thing but real masters pretty much don’t. On my rifle besides butchering the muzzle cap and the barrel channel the ramrod protrudes an inch past the barrel. With the fact that they removed the barrel channel they could have corrected that by just drilling deeper. Next time I take it apart I will drill the hole 3/4 of an inch deeper. There’s plenty of room there where it won’t interfere with the trigger guard or anything thing else. But I’m not surprised. I’m curious did you install the buttplate or did it come installed. The TOTW Lancaster stock I purchased left wood to be removed and inlet for a nice fit. Granted it is not considered a kit stock. But even on Kimbler’s at least the one I assembled needed slight fitting but nothing to write home about. Took me some time to get it done on the TOTW stock but I am happy with it and I am a novice. My TVM was cut out on a bandsaw saw and a filler used to hold buttplate in place. I’m okay with that because when I asked them they told me they fit all there buttplates the same way. If the rifle didn’t crack I would have never known or even cared because again all assembled it presented well. They used something other than acraglass i say bondo but I got pushback by some on the forum as to them using bondo which is fine because what they used doesn’t really matter. I could smell the fiberglass when I took the drum sander to the heel to get the plate to match after it shrunk excessively. Anyway what do you think I can get for it knowing all it’s assembly issues?

 

[Joemolf]

Actually it the Ramrod extends 5/8 of an inch past

the muzzle. I’m going to fix it now it’s bothering me LOL!

 

[SDSmlf]

Anyway what do you think I can get for it knowing all it’s assembly issues?

Considering that folks are ordering TVM guns every day with a known year plus wait to get a new one delivered, ask close to the $2500 you paid and see what happens. Someone will be happy not having to wait for one to be made, with a crapshoot on the quality, maybe better, maybe worse than what you have. At least many of the issues are already documented on the sample you will offer.

 

[MAC1967]

It's been about 6-8 years ago, but I am 99% certain that my TVM Lancaster kit was band saw cut for the butt plate but I had to do the "smoking" of the plate and inletting process. Having done a fowler and a steel southern plate the lancaster brass was the easiest, my Chambers PA fowler was more inlet than the TVM but there are very different plates.

Any TVM built rifle should hold a decent value still. They are well known and have a pretty good reputation. $2500 seems high . . . unless it is really fine figured wood. . . others here may have a better view of value than I do.

Matt Advance has several builders in his shop, but they seem to put out quality rifles. However, I think he cuts his stocks via a band saw - there's a youtube video of it. Hershell House does the same thing, and it is quite a skill, but I prefer a machine cut pre-carve like Chambers, Pecatonica or Track of the Wolf. . . TVM rifles tend to all look similar to me in their styles and perhaps the bandsaw is why, I don't know.

I am left handed so TVM was my best choice for a .32 flinter, which is what I wanted.

 

[Joemolf]

Fixed! Best 120 dollars I spent on the 48 inch 3/8 drill bit LOL!

 

[Joemolf]

Considering that folks are ordering TVM guns every day with a known year plus wait to get a new one delivered, ask close to the $2500 you paid and see what happens. Someone will be happy not having to wait for one to be made, with a crapshoot on the quality, maybe better, maybe worse than what you have. At least many of the issues are already documented on the sample you will offer.

Thank You!

 

[Joemolf]

I had to install the lock to keep the bit down. Obviously and not uncommon bits walk and can go in all different directions. Using the forward screw as the bit hold down. But it turns out well and now the ramryis no longer in the way of loading. That was annoying! LOL

 

[Joemolf]

So I paid $2400 for a Special Build 90 for shipping.

 

[Joemolf]

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